Insights Into Tomorrow: Episode 7 “Deadly Force”

In the wake of the death of George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks and so many other minorities at the hands of police we take a look at the concept of deadly force. We’ll explore what deadly force is by looking at the legal standard for deadly force. We will explore the authority invested in police to use force, when that use of force can be escalated and the rules around how and when police can use force.

We’ll examine the Use of Force Continuum and explore the lack of a centralized set of standards for police within the United States and how that in combination with varying local laws can lead to abuse of police authority. We’ll explore the inconsistent and decentralized training of police throughout the country. We will examine laws that have been on the books for years that were designed to shield rogue elements of the police force from public scrutiny.

We have a broken system of law enforcement in this country today that is resulting in deadly outcomes far more frequently then it should. We’ll explore some of these break downs in the system and we’ll also look at changes that are happening now thanks to the sacrifices of individuals like Eric Garner, George Floyd, Rayshard Books and many  more. A change is need, and a change is happening now with more reforms and consequences to come.

Show Notes
  • Introductions
    • Insights Into Tomorrow Episode 7 “Deadly Force”
    • My co-host Sam Whalen

[TRANSITION]
  

  • What is Deadly Force

[TRANSITION]
  

  • Legal Standard for deadly force by police
    • https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/overview-police-use-force
    • https://bit.ly/2BT2HAB
      • Broadly speaking, the use of force by law enforcement officers becomes necessary and is permitted under specific circumstances, such as in self-defense or in defense of another individual or group.
      • There is no single, universally agreed-upon definition of use of force. The International Association of Chiefs of Police has described use of force as the “amount of effort required by police to compel compliance by an unwilling subject”.
      • Officers receive guidance from their individual agencies, but no universal set of rules governs when officers should use force and how much.
      • Context counts.
        • No two situations are the same, nor are any two officers.
        • In a potentially threatening situation, an officer will quickly tailor a response and apply force, if necessary.
        • Situational awareness is essential, and officers are trained to judge when a crisis requires the use of force to regain control of a situation.
        • In most cases, time becomes the key variable in determining when an officer chooses to use force.
            
    • Amount of Force Used
      • Law enforcement officers should use only the amount of force necessary to mitigate an incident, make an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm.
      • The levels, or continuum, of force police use include basic verbal and physical restraint, less-lethal force, and lethal force.
      • The level of force an officer uses varies based on the situation.
      • Because of this variation, guidelines for the use of force are based on many factors, including the officer’s level of training or experience.
      • An officer’s goal is to regain control as soon as possible while protecting the community.
      • Use of force is an officer’s last option — a necessary course of action to restore safety in a community when other practices are ineffective.
      • Injuries may occur in any use-of-force incident, and police should ensure that those injured receive medical aid and that the family of any injured person is notified.

[AD1: SSE]

  • The Use-of-Force Continuum/Spectrum
    • https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/excessive-force-and-police-brutality.html
    • https://bit.ly/2OkdFBw
      • The Supreme Court has recognized that “the right to make an arrest or investigatory stop necessarily carries with it the right to use some degree of physical coercion or threat.”
      • However, the degree of coercion or force used must be proportional to the threat and escalate only in response to the threat.
      • Most law enforcement agencies have policies that guide their use of force.
      • These policies describe an escalating series of actions an officer may take to resolve a situation.
      • This continuum generally has many levels, and officers are instructed to respond with a level of force appropriate to the situation at hand, acknowledging that the officer may move from one part of the continuum to another in a matter of seconds.
      • An example of a use-of-force continuum follows:
        • Officer Presence –No force is used
          • Considered the best way to resolve a situation.
          • The mere presence of a law enforcement officer works to deter crime or diffuse a situation.
          • Officers’ attitudes are professional and nonthreatening.
              
        • Verbalization — Force is not-physical
          • Officers issue calm, nonthreatening commands, such as “Let me see your identification and registration.”
          • Officers may increase their volume and shorten commands in an attempt to gain compliance. Short commands might include “Stop,” or “Don’t move.”
              
        • Empty-Hand Control — Officers use bodily force to gain control of a situation
          • Soft technique. Officers use grabs, holds and joint locks to restrain an individual.
          • Hard technique. Officers use punches and kicks to restrain an individual.
              
        • Less-Lethal Methods — Officers use less-lethal technologies to gain control of a situation
          • Blunt impact. Officers may use a baton or projectile to immobilize a combative person.
          • Chemical. Officers may use chemical sprays or projectiles embedded with chemicals to restrain an individual (e.g., pepper spray).
          • Conducted Energy Devices (CEDs). Officers may use CEDs to immobilize an individual. CEDs discharge a high-voltage, low-amperage jolt of electricity at a distance.
              
        • Lethal Force — Officers use lethal weapons to gain control of a situation.
          • Should only be used if a suspect poses a serious threat to the officer or another individual.
          • Officers use deadly weapons such as firearms to stop an individual’s actions.

[TRANSITION]
  

  • Excessive Force
    • https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/excessive-force-and-police-brutality.html
    • https://bit.ly/2OkdFBw
      • Excessive force refers to situations where government officials legally entitled to use force exceed the minimum amount necessary to diffuse an incident or to protect themselves or others from harm.
      • This can come up in different contexts, such as when handling prisoners or even during military operations.
      • When it involves law enforcement, especially during an arrest, it’s also referred to as police brutality.
      • The constitutional right to be protected from excessive force is found in the reasonable search and seizure requirement of the Fourth Amendment and the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment in the Eighth Amendment.
          
    • Unreasonable Force
      • In the Supreme Court case Tennessee v. Garner, the Court found that police used excessive force by shooting an unarmed, non-threatening teenager in the head while fleeing a house he had burglarized.
      • At the time, a Tennessee law authorized the use of “all the necessary means to effect the arrest” of fleeing suspects, regardless of the situation.
      • The Court overturned the state law because it allowed for unreasonable use of force in violation of the Fourth Amendment.
      • In that landmark case, the Court ruled that deadly force can only be used during an arrest if:
        • Necessary to prevent the escape; and
        • The officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.
      • Excessive force and police brutality don’t just apply to cases of deadly force, but can also be found where injuries are relatively minor but resulted from an unreasonable use of force.

[TRANSITION]
  

  • Available Remedies
    • https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/excessive-force-and-police-brutality.html
    • https://bit.ly/2OkdFBw
      • Excessive force is a constitutional violation that can be remedied by filing a civil rights complaint for monetary or injunctive relief under Section 1983 of the United States Code.
      • You can also file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Justice, which may decide to investigate your case.
      • When deciding whether a government official such as a police officer engaged in excessive force, courts look to the totality of the circumstances to determine whether the actions were “objectively reasonable.”
      • In making this determination, judges use the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene lacking the benefit of hindsight.
      • With this perspective, courts analyze factors such as:
        • The severity of the underlying crime or circumstances;
        • Whether an immediate threat to the safety of the officer or others existed;
        • Whether the individual was actively resisting arrest or attempting to flee;
        • Whether other alternatives were available; or
        • Whether warnings were provided or could have been provided.
      • Along with deferring to a law enforcement reasonableness standard, courts can also give officers qualified immunity.
      • This protects public officials from civil liability for violations of rights so long as they were reasonably performing their duties and the rights involved were not “clearly established.”
      • In excessive force cases, qualified immunity can protect police officers in harder to evaluate situations where there’s a “hazy border between excessive and acceptable force.”
      • However, to benefit from this immunity, officials would need to show that a reasonable person in their position wouldn’t have known that their actions violated clearly established law.
          
  • Examples of unjustified Deadly Force
    • 17 July 2014: Eric Garner
    • https://www.halt.org/10-examples-of-police-misconduct-to-refer-to-for-your-case/
    • https://bit.ly/3gRJr5f
      • He was allegedly selling illegal cigarettes on the street of Staten Island.
      • He wasn’t threatening or being violent towards the officers.
      • The officers attempted to make an arrest and wrestled Garner to the ground. They then put him in a chokehold when Garner said repeatedly that he couldn’t breathe.
      • “I can’t breathe” has become one of the rallying cries of the Black Lives Matter movement, a movement that focuses on the unfair and biased police brutality that mostly black men (but also any person of color) face.
      • Officers continued to press his head into the ground and kept him in a chokehold. He suffered neck injuries and died because of those compressions.
      • This case was considered to show police officers using illegal maneuvers and using excessive force.
      • However, neither of the officers involved were charged with a crime.
      • The officer who put Garner in a chokehold was stripped of both his badge and his gun.
      • His supervisor was also charged with failure to supervise and also stripped of her badge and gun.
          
    • 25 May 2020: George Floyd
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality#From_2020
    • https://bit.ly/3iPeosF
      • George Floyd, 46, was killed by Officer Derek Chauvin in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
        • George Floyd
          • The Good
            • He was a hip hop artist and a mentor in his religious community.
            • He became more involved with Resurrection Houston, a Christian church and ministry, where he mentored young men.
            • He helped his mother recuperate after a stroke. 
            • He delivered meals and assisted on other projects with Angel By Nature Foundation
            • Later he became involved with a ministry that brought men from the Third Ward to Minnesota in a church-work program with drug rehabilitation and job placement services
            • Floyd had five children, including two daughters (ages 6 and 22) in Houston and an adult son in Bryan, Texas. A former partner lives in Houston with his youngest daughter.[37] He also had two grandchildren.
          • The Bad
            • Between 1997 and 2005, Floyd was sentenced to jail terms eight times on various charges, including drug possession, theft and trespass.
            • In 2009 he was sentenced to five years in prison for armed robbery and was paroled in January 2013
            • On May 25, 2020, Floyd was arrested after allegedly passing a counterfeit $20 bill at a grocery store in the Powderhorn Park neighborhood of Minneapolis.
        • Derek Chauvin
          • The Good
            • Received a medal for valor in 2006 for being one of several officers who fired on a suspect who pointed a shotgun at them
            • Received another medal in 2008 for a domestic-violence incident in which Chauvin broke down a door and shot a suspect who reached for his pistol
            • He received a commendation medal in 2008 after he and his partner tackled a fleeing suspect holding a pistol, and another in 2009 for single-handedly apprehending a group of gang members.
          • The Bad
            • Chauvin had 18 complaints on his official record, two of which ended in discipline, including official letters of reprimand.
            • He had been involved in three police shootings, one of which was fatal.
            • Both Chauvin worked as security guards at a Latin nightclub “El Nuevo Rodeo”
            • The club owner said Chauvin had sometimes used overaggressive tactics when dealing with black clientele, responding to fights by spraying the crowd with mace instead of dealing with those who were fighting.
      • He was prostrate on the ground, laying face down.
      • The video evidence shows him pleading for his life, while Chauvin’s knee remains on his neck for the duration of the video.
      • Chauvin was promptly fired by the Minneapolis Police Department and was initially charged with 3rd Degree Murder, and 2nd degree Manslaughter.
      • The charge of 2nd Degree Murder was later added. The other three officers that were near Floyd at the time and did not help Floyd were charged with aiding and abetting the killing.
  • 12 June 2020: Rayshard Brooks
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality#From_2020
  • https://bit.ly/3iPeosF
    • Rayshard Brooks, a 27-year-old African American man, was shot and killed by Atlanta Police Department officer Garrett Rolfe.
    • Officer Devin Brosnan responded to a complaint that Brooks was asleep in a car blocking a restaurant drive-through lane; Rolfe arrived after Brosnan radioed for assistance some minutes later.
    • After a breathalyzer exam indicated that Brooks’s blood-alcohol content was above the legal limit for driving, Rolfe and Brosnan began to handcuff Brooks.
    • Brooks scuffled with the officers, got hold of Brosnan’s taser, punched Rolfe, and ran.
    • With Rolfe pursuing him, Brooks turned to fire the taser toward Rolfe, who then shot Brooks twice in the back; a third shot struck an occupied car.
    • Brooks died after surgery.
    • Footage of the incident from the officers’ bodycams, from a witness’s phone, and from the restaurant’s security system were widely broadcast.
    • Rolfe was fired, Brosnan was placed on administrative duty, and police chief Erika Shields resigned the following day.
    • Based on these videos and witness reports, prosecutors claim (prior to a completed investigation by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation) that after Brooks was shot, Rolfe kicked Brooks and Brosnan stood on his shoulder.
    • Rolfe has been charged with felony murder and ten other offenses, Brosnan with aggravated assault and two counts of violation of oath.

[AD 2: Teens]
  

  • What the Future Holds
  • https://www.axios.com/black-lives-matter-protest-police-reform-64c6efb2-31a5-463a-bc1d-2db7b24360d5.html
  • https://bit.ly/2W9mliI
    • Marchers have delivered a clear message in the days since George Floyd was killed — change how America’s police treat black people, and do it now.
    • Here is just a partial list of the actions under way because of the protests:
      • Tactical rule changes:
        • Dallas and Minneapolis mandated officers intervene when a colleague is using excessive force.
        • Seattle banned the covering of badge numbers, choke holds and tear gas.
        • Minneapolis banned chokeholds.
        • Houston banned chokeholds.
        • New York banned chokeholds and repealed a law that sealed records of officer misconduct from the public
        • Philadelphia bans tear gas and “other non-lethal methods”
        • Connecticut banned chokeholds and prohibits state emergency services from buying military grade equipment from the federal government
    • Budget cuts:
      • Los Angeles is considering cutting its police budget by up to $150 million.
      • NYC is considering cuts, but hasn’t disclosed specific numbers.
          
    • Defunding:
      • Minneapolis’ city council passed a resolution on Friday to replace its police department with a community-centric model.
          
    • School contracts axed:
      • Minneapolis, Denver and Portland have moved to end the presence of police officers in local schools.
      • Officers have a presence in the 25 biggest school districts nationwide, per Chalkbeat.
          
    • No-knock warrants ban:
      • Louisville, Kentucky — where Breonna Taylor was killed by officers who raided her home with this type of warrant — has banned the practice.
          
    • Police transparency changes:
      • New York removed a shield clause that locked down records of officers who’d been investigated for excessive force.
          
    • Disciplinary hurdles:
      • It is ridiculously hard to fire police officers in the U.S., let alone getting criminal charges to stick.
      • Chalk that up to unions, or qualified immunity, or weakness from elected officials — but it’s a major roadblock to change.
      • The Minneapolis Police Department said that it is withdrawing from negotiations with its police union. The real effect of that is yet to be determined.
Transcription

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[Music]

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insightful podcasts by informative host

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insights into things a podcast network

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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welcome to insights into tomorrow where

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we take a deeper look into how the

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issues of today will impact the world of

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tomorrow from politics and world news to

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media and technology we discuss how

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today’s headlines are becoming

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tomorrow’s reality

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[Music]

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welcome to insights into tomorrow

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this is episode seven deadly force

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I’m your host Joseph Whalen and my

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slightly out of free host Sam Welling oh

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how you doing today Sam I’m doing fine

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so with everything that was that’s been

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going on with

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in the wake of the George Floyd death

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and the protests and everything else you

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and I had wanted to do something

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on the topic but I think we kind of came

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to the conclusion that we probably are

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not qualified to do commentary on black

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lives matter so I thought the one thing

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that we could address from this whole

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thing is the the root cause of it the

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police use of deadly force so that’s

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what today’s episode is gonna be about

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any comments yeah well before we get

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into it I mean even though we’re not

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talking about black lives matter it’s

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obviously so very important to make sure

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you sign petitions donate things like

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that just because we’re not talking

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about it I don’t be able to get the

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impression that were you know stepping

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aside from it we’d still you know fully

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support at least you know absolutely and

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it is very good to mention that you know

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we aren’t talking about it because I

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don’t think we’re the experts we can’t

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bring a perspective to it so I don’t

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want to do it in a way but I’m gonna

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cover it in a way that it can’t be

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covered comprehensively

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and from the right angle and I don’t

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think were the people that can do that

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yeah

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so this is this is our our attempt at at

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supporting black lives matter by

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bringing these things to the fore from

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you know these are really the root cause

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of it is is really the the police

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violence and the the the the treatment

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of minorities by police and the

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profiling and everything else um we’re

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not going to get into everything you

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know and then this is not an episode to

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bash police

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this is really we want to draw attention

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to the fact that there are standards out

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there there are mixed sense standards

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that are not applied evenly across the

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board but there are standards out there

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that are intended to allow the police to

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do their job without having incidents

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like George Florida happening and

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sometimes those standards are not

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followed and and that’s where we wind up

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in these situations and that’s what

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needs to be addressed

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yep so with that in mind our be ready to

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move forward so the first thing I think

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we kind of need to do before we we dig

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into the the meat and potatoes of the

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subject that’s kind of define what

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deadly force is so deadly force you know

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this comes from Wikipedia so it’s a

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pretty generic definition deadly force

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or lethal force is you is use a force

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that is likely to cause serious bodily

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injury or death to another person in

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most jurisdiction the use of deadly

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force is justified only under conditions

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of extreme necessity as a last resort

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all lesser means have failed or cannot

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reasonably be employee he goes on to say

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that firearms bladed weapons explosives

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and vehicles are among those weapons the

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use of which is considered deadly force

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the use of non-traditional weapons in an

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offensive manner such as baseball bat

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sharp pencil iron or other items may

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also be considered deadly force so let’s

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just take a second to talk about that so

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in certain circumstances police are

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authorized to use deadly force but that

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does not give police the right to be

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judge jury and executioner so there has

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to be some restraint placed on that did

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you have any comments on our definition

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that we’re working off of no I think I

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think it’s definitely accurate I mean it

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says when all lesser means have failed

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and I think that as we go on we’re gonna

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see that it’s not always that’s not

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always used as a last resort that

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sometimes well more often than not that

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deadly force is employed in situations

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where there were other options maybe or

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and it’s it’s it’s murky because the

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officer can always say that their life

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was in danger which is which can be open

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to interpretation but I do think that in

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this instance the deadly force is to be

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used as a last resort and you know as I

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said we’ll go through and see often that

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applies right so there are there is

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legal standard for using deadly force by

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police mm-hmm

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so broadly speaking the use of deadly

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force by law enforcement is necessary

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and permitted under specific

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circumstances such as self-defense or in

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defense of another individual or group

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and this is kind of what you were

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mentioning where that’s kind of the out

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where if if the officer says well I

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thought my life was in danger

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in some jurisdictions that gives him the

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right to use deadly force even if the

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person they’re trying to apprehend is

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not committing crimes that warrant that

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level of response the problem I think

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we’ve run into is it there is no single

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universally agreed-upon set of rules for

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use of force the International

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Association of Chiefs of Police has

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described the use of force as amount of

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effort required by police to compel

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compliance by an unwilling subject

0:07:12.250,0:07:18.060
now I think you’ll agree that’s a pretty

0:07:14.230,0:07:21.650
vague standard that we have there

0:07:18.060,0:07:24.240
what concerns do you have about that

0:07:21.650,0:07:27.210
standard that they have well I mean

0:07:24.240,0:07:29.250
ultimately the and the court of public

0:07:27.210,0:07:30.660
opinion you’d think that it would be

0:07:29.250,0:07:32.730
more tricky trust the police you’re

0:07:30.660,0:07:34.350
supposed to trust your police but in

0:07:32.730,0:07:37.020
these instances when when they’re the

0:07:34.350,0:07:38.520
one that may hold all the power in these

0:07:37.020,0:07:41.010
situations and it’s their word before

0:07:38.520,0:07:42.990
yours they’re the ones that get to write

0:07:41.010,0:07:43.770
the narrative in these situations and I

0:07:42.990,0:07:45.419
think that that can be dangerous

0:07:43.770,0:07:48.570
especially when you bring in things like

0:07:45.419,0:07:51.780
systemic racism and profiling and things

0:07:48.570,0:07:53.310
like that which can skew an officer what

0:07:51.780,0:07:56.400
an officer may do and their motivations

0:07:53.310,0:07:58.610
behind it right right I agree and and

0:07:56.400,0:08:00.780
you know it goes on to say that officers

0:07:58.610,0:08:02.760
they received guidance from their

0:08:00.780,0:08:06.450
individual agencies but there’s no

0:08:02.760,0:08:09.630
federal mandate let’s say for rules that

0:08:06.450,0:08:14.400
govern when officers should use force

0:08:09.630,0:08:16.680
and that use of force has to be take

0:08:14.400,0:08:18.210
there’s the context in which the

0:08:16.680,0:08:21.090
situation is has to be taken in the

0:08:18.210,0:08:23.190
context like you know there’s no two

0:08:21.090,0:08:24.810
situations that are the same and there

0:08:23.190,0:08:27.539
are no two officers are the same so

0:08:24.810,0:08:30.630
you’re not there isn’t an automated

0:08:27.539,0:08:32.520
response like it’s it’s not like it’s

0:08:30.630,0:08:34.020
not like machine you know where you can

0:08:32.520,0:08:36.820
perform the same thing over and over the

0:08:34.020,0:08:39.520
situations are always different

0:08:36.820,0:08:41.710
and in potentially threatening

0:08:39.520,0:08:44.860
situations an officer will quickly

0:08:41.710,0:08:47.380
tailor the response to apply force and

0:08:44.860,0:08:50.380
you know looking at it from the

0:08:47.380,0:08:52.300
perspective of a police officer you

0:08:50.380,0:08:54.220
don’t have a lot of time in dangerous

0:08:52.300,0:08:57.340
situations to make a decision

0:08:54.220,0:09:00.820
you know sometimes

0:08:57.340,0:09:04.300
people let’s you know a scenario that

0:09:00.820,0:09:07.060
comes to mind is you’re responding to an

0:09:04.300,0:09:09.340
alleged armed robbery and you chase a

0:09:07.060,0:09:12.640
subject into a dark alley and the the

0:09:09.340,0:09:15.400
subject reaches into his pants to pull

0:09:12.640,0:09:18.370
something in as a police officer you’ve

0:09:15.400,0:09:20.620
got a split-second decision there to

0:09:18.370,0:09:24.820
determine is this guy pulling out his ID

0:09:20.620,0:09:25.900
is he pulling out a gun you know is my

0:09:24.820,0:09:29.520
life in danger

0:09:25.900,0:09:34.600
and in that split-second is where

0:09:29.520,0:09:36.730
tragedies happen situational awareness

0:09:34.600,0:09:38.710
is also essential in these cases

0:09:36.730,0:09:41.680
officers are trained to judge when a

0:09:38.710,0:09:46.330
crisis requires the use of force and to

0:09:41.680,0:09:48.970
regain control of a situation now my

0:09:46.330,0:09:50.440
concern there is that not all officers

0:09:48.970,0:09:52.390
received the same training there’s no

0:09:50.440,0:09:54.880
uniform training across the board

0:09:52.390,0:09:57.070
throughout the country what are your

0:09:54.880,0:09:58.540
thoughts on that um I don’t know if you

0:09:57.070,0:10:01.090
watched last week tonight with John

0:09:58.540,0:10:03.940
Oliver but it but they talked about this

0:10:01.090,0:10:05.290
one specific kind of trainer that it’s

0:10:03.940,0:10:06.460
almost like seminars that he goes around

0:10:05.290,0:10:08.080
this guy goes around the country and I

0:10:06.460,0:10:10.660
forget his name he goes around the

0:10:08.080,0:10:12.520
country and trains police and he has

0:10:10.660,0:10:14.560
this like predator mindset where he

0:10:12.520,0:10:16.750
encourages police to be like apex

0:10:14.560,0:10:18.420
predators and so this guy has gone all

0:10:16.750,0:10:21.280
around the country so you have no idea

0:10:18.420,0:10:22.150
what kind of training these officers are

0:10:21.280,0:10:24.520
getting just like you said because

0:10:22.150,0:10:26.320
there’s no there’s no set standard so

0:10:24.520,0:10:28.690
you could get certain places where they

0:10:26.320,0:10:31.180
have very dangerous you know

0:10:28.690,0:10:32.290
hunter-killer mindsets but another in

0:10:31.180,0:10:36.150
other situations maybe they’re

0:10:32.290,0:10:39.460
encouraged to be more peaceful and less

0:10:36.150,0:10:41.440
reactive and violent so really the fact

0:10:39.460,0:10:44.770
that there’s no standard it leaves a lot

0:10:41.440,0:10:47.230
of it up to to chance almost so it’s

0:10:44.770,0:10:49.540
worthwhile to talk about the amount of

0:10:47.230,0:10:51.329
force that is used because I think we

0:10:49.540,0:10:55.679
can all agree that

0:10:51.329,0:10:57.299
when a police officer is responding to

0:10:55.679,0:11:00.839
an incident and you have a

0:10:57.299,0:11:02.279
non-cooperative suspect chances are

0:11:00.839,0:11:05.579
you’re gonna have to use some kind of

0:11:02.279,0:11:07.499
level of force the whether that’s vocal

0:11:05.579,0:11:11.339
persuasion or you have to resort to

0:11:07.499,0:11:13.350
physical use whatever it is so law

0:11:11.339,0:11:15.089
enforcement officers should use only the

0:11:13.350,0:11:17.759
amount of force necessary to mitigate

0:11:15.089,0:11:20.610
the incident make an arrest or protect

0:11:17.759,0:11:23.089
themselves and others from harm now one

0:11:20.610,0:11:28.019
of the problems that I have with that is

0:11:23.089,0:11:29.579
you oftentimes have police that do

0:11:28.019,0:11:33.360
things like engage in high-speed

0:11:29.579,0:11:36.089
pursuits you pull somebody over at a

0:11:33.360,0:11:39.179
traffic stop and they have a taillight

0:11:36.089,0:11:40.829
out and the police go up to question the

0:11:39.179,0:11:43.230
individual the individual takes off and

0:11:40.829,0:11:44.980
then the police engage in a high-speed

0:11:43.230,0:11:48.339
pursuit

0:11:44.980,0:11:51.639
so now the original offense here is a

0:11:48.339,0:11:54.310
broken traffic light you can speculate

0:11:51.639,0:11:58.570
on what else that person might be guilty

0:11:54.310,0:12:01.660
of because of them flame but is what

0:11:58.570,0:12:03.940
they might be guilty of worth putting at

0:12:01.660,0:12:05.230
risk all the other pedestrians and

0:12:03.940,0:12:07.690
drivers that are on the road through a

0:12:05.230,0:12:10.000
high-speed chase no and I think that

0:12:07.690,0:12:11.470
even not just high speed chases but that

0:12:10.000,0:12:13.180
situation could be anything right and

0:12:11.470,0:12:15.670
I’m sure we’ll talk about it more once

0:12:13.180,0:12:19.510
we get to specific cases but at what

0:12:15.670,0:12:21.279
point is a person’s death warranted you

0:12:19.510,0:12:24.750
know they’re always there always should

0:12:21.279,0:12:27.899
be another way right so there are levels

0:12:24.750,0:12:32.199
there’s a continuum of police force

0:12:27.899,0:12:34.589
that’s used which includes basic verbal

0:12:32.199,0:12:38.709
and physical restrain less lethal force

0:12:34.589,0:12:40.360
and as high as lethal forces and the

0:12:38.709,0:12:42.399
level of force of the officer uses

0:12:40.360,0:12:45.120
varies based on situation I think we can

0:12:42.399,0:12:47.530
both agree on that

0:12:45.120,0:12:49.620
because of this guidelines for the use

0:12:47.530,0:12:52.630
of force are based on many factors

0:12:49.620,0:12:55.420
including the officers level of training

0:12:52.630,0:12:57.220
or experience now unfortunately the

0:12:55.420,0:13:01.030
research that I did didn’t really delve

0:12:57.220,0:13:03.180
too much into what level of force you

0:13:01.030,0:13:05.320
can apply at your level of experience

0:13:03.180,0:13:08.950
but I think that’s crucial

0:13:05.320,0:13:11.530
a lot of the incidents that we’ve seen

0:13:08.950,0:13:13.260
recently have been very experienced

0:13:11.530,0:13:16.510
officers who have been involved in these

0:13:13.260,0:13:18.370
so if the training is proportional to

0:13:16.510,0:13:20.380
your experience and the level of force

0:13:18.370,0:13:23.410
is proportional to your experience I

0:13:20.380,0:13:25.720
think we have a disconnect and even then

0:13:23.410,0:13:27.010
you have to wonder if people in a

0:13:25.720,0:13:28.030
situation where more cops are acquired

0:13:27.010,0:13:30.280
if people are getting push through the

0:13:28.030,0:13:31.720
Academy faster than they should be who

0:13:30.280,0:13:34.420
are we putting out on the streets with

0:13:31.720,0:13:36.820
maybe less training but the just the

0:13:34.420,0:13:38.560
same capability to use as much force as

0:13:36.820,0:13:40.660
an experienced officer they still all

0:13:38.560,0:13:42.100
have the same equipment you know on some

0:13:40.660,0:13:43.870
level yeah I mean it doesn’t take much

0:13:42.100,0:13:47.220
to pull the trigger yeah but it takes a

0:13:43.870,0:13:47.220
lot to know when to pull the trigger

0:13:47.970,0:13:52.800
and officers goal is to regain control

0:13:50.459,0:13:56.699
as soon as possible when protecting the

0:13:52.800,0:14:00.329
community that controlled dynamic I

0:13:56.699,0:14:03.089
think is what a lot of this deadly force

0:14:00.329,0:14:05.939
comes down to because the police are

0:14:03.089,0:14:08.220
trained to operate from a level of

0:14:05.939,0:14:12.750
authority and when that Authority is

0:14:08.220,0:14:15.839
undermined you tend to get an emotional

0:14:12.750,0:14:17.670
response from the police and that

0:14:15.839,0:14:20.819
emotional response is fueled by the need

0:14:17.670,0:14:22.710
for them to be in that that authority

0:14:20.819,0:14:25.980
dynamic

0:14:22.710,0:14:29.790
and when that fails then things start to

0:14:25.980,0:14:32.010
break down the use of force is supposed

0:14:29.790,0:14:35.580
to be an officer’s last option not it

0:14:32.010,0:14:37.500
not their first and it’s sometimes a

0:14:35.580,0:14:39.950
necessary course of action to restore

0:14:37.500,0:14:43.230
safety in the community

0:14:39.950,0:14:45.330
injuries may occur with the use of force

0:14:43.230,0:14:47.540
and I think we can all agree that if

0:14:45.330,0:14:51.029
you’re being restrained because you’re

0:14:47.540,0:14:53.270
resisting arrest there’s a very good

0:14:51.029,0:14:55.620
chance that an injury could occur

0:14:53.270,0:14:58.260
police should ensure that the injured

0:14:55.620,0:15:01.290
receive medical heed and that the family

0:14:58.260,0:15:02.880
of any injured person is notified that’s

0:15:01.290,0:15:04.950
where some of the dispute comes in with

0:15:02.880,0:15:07.260
some of the latest incidents that we’ve

0:15:04.950,0:15:10.230
had for instance we’re gonna talk about

0:15:07.260,0:15:13.320
George florid a little bit more later in

0:15:10.230,0:15:15.210
the show but George Floyd had an

0:15:13.320,0:15:17.279
officers kneeling on his neck for nine

0:15:15.210,0:15:21.839
almost nine minutes and three of those

0:15:17.279,0:15:24.750
nine minutes he was unresponsive not

0:15:21.839,0:15:26.310
breathing and had no pulse and none of

0:15:24.750,0:15:28.350
the officers when he was in that

0:15:26.310,0:15:30.570
condition attempted to render assistance

0:15:28.350,0:15:32.010
well they’re also not just the one on

0:15:30.570,0:15:34.110
his neck but they’re also other officers

0:15:32.010,0:15:35.640
on his back and his legs yeah just

0:15:34.110,0:15:37.950
pressing him into the ground

0:15:35.640,0:15:39.510
yeah and you can get there’s footage out

0:15:37.950,0:15:41.700
there the first one that you know blew

0:15:39.510,0:15:43.890
up was the one of just the the officer

0:15:41.700,0:15:45.120
with the knee on his neck but later on

0:15:43.890,0:15:47.250
there was footage that came out of the

0:15:45.120,0:15:49.080
other officers from the other side of

0:15:47.250,0:15:51.240
the street watching also pinning him

0:15:49.080,0:15:54.050
down its derivatives horrific Talaat it

0:15:51.240,0:15:58.230
is I mean it almost looks like he was

0:15:54.050,0:16:00.450
accidentally executed so the police used

0:15:58.230,0:16:02.790
something called the use of force

0:16:00.450,0:16:06.240
continuum of the use of force spectrum

0:16:02.790,0:16:08.700
and that kind of tells you when to use

0:16:06.240,0:16:10.320
what level of force we’re gonna take a

0:16:08.700,0:16:13.300
quick break and then we’ll come back and

0:16:10.320,0:16:19.690
we’ll talk about that in more detail

0:16:13.300,0:16:19.690
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0:17:22.760,0:17:30.180
so the use of force continuum is really

0:17:26.520,0:17:32.870
kind of a spectrum of what level of

0:17:30.180,0:17:35.940
force to use when in certain situations

0:17:32.870,0:17:38.280
the Supreme Court has recognized that

0:17:35.940,0:17:41.490
the right to make an arrest or

0:17:38.280,0:17:43.530
investigatory stop necessarily carries

0:17:41.490,0:17:46.550
with it the right to use some degree of

0:17:43.530,0:17:49.820
physical coercion or threat

0:17:46.550,0:17:51.620
now that statement itself sounds kind of

0:17:49.820,0:17:54.410
scary yeah I mean that’s kind of

0:17:51.620,0:17:56.000
disturbing isn’t it it almost puts it in

0:17:54.410,0:17:58.010
that they should go in with a hostile

0:17:56.000,0:17:59.750
mindset exactly which is not what they

0:17:58.010,0:18:02.870
should be doing which i think is exactly

0:17:59.750,0:18:05.350
what is happening in a lot of situations

0:18:02.870,0:18:09.030
and when you see a lot of these

0:18:05.350,0:18:13.230
movements to defund the police

0:18:09.030,0:18:16.500
it’s driven by that mindset of every

0:18:13.230,0:18:19.620
time you call 9-1-1 whether it’s for a

0:18:16.500,0:18:22.800
domestic dispute a car accident a heart

0:18:19.620,0:18:25.290
attack the first person to show up is a

0:18:22.800,0:18:28.860
police officer with a gun and this

0:18:25.290,0:18:31.770
mindset of I’m the authority and that

0:18:28.860,0:18:33.540
immediately puts a lot of people on a

0:18:31.770,0:18:35.190
defensive posture at that point in time

0:18:33.540,0:18:36.540
especially if they’re if the police are

0:18:35.190,0:18:38.400
going to a situation it’s already really

0:18:36.540,0:18:40.350
tense and already right on the brink of

0:18:38.400,0:18:43.080
like a powder keg almost you have an

0:18:40.350,0:18:44.880
officer show up who is armed and you

0:18:43.080,0:18:45.780
know that can some that can what the

0:18:44.880,0:18:47.730
officer you’ve been doing anything

0:18:45.780,0:18:48.990
unfortunately can add another degree

0:18:47.730,0:18:51.840
attention in that situation absolutely

0:18:48.990,0:18:54.600
you’re injecting an aggressive mentality

0:18:51.840,0:18:56.300
into a situation it’s already about to

0:18:54.600,0:18:59.250
explode especially if it’s in a

0:18:56.300,0:19:00.660
situation dealing with you know you know

0:18:59.250,0:19:02.670
minorities are a low-income area because

0:19:00.660,0:19:04.020
they’re already suspicious of police to

0:19:02.670,0:19:06.470
begin with because of police violence

0:19:04.020,0:19:09.600
and you know things like that absolutely

0:19:06.470,0:19:12.080
so the degree of coercion or force use

0:19:09.600,0:19:14.850
must be proportional to the threat and

0:19:12.080,0:19:17.130
escalate only in response to the threat

0:19:14.850,0:19:20.280
most law enforcement agencies have

0:19:17.130,0:19:22.710
policies that guide their use of force

0:19:20.280,0:19:24.390
but again they’re not applied evenly

0:19:22.710,0:19:27.120
across the board throughout the country

0:19:24.390,0:19:29.640
the policies describe an escalating

0:19:27.120,0:19:32.490
series of actions an officer may take to

0:19:29.640,0:19:35.880
resolve the situation this continuum

0:19:32.490,0:19:37.830
generally has many levels and officers

0:19:35.880,0:19:40.140
are instructed to respond with a level

0:19:37.830,0:19:42.930
of force appropriate to the situation at

0:19:40.140,0:19:44.880
hand acknowledging that the officer may

0:19:42.930,0:19:46.740
move from one part of the continuing to

0:19:44.880,0:19:50.280
another in a matter of seconds so again

0:19:46.740,0:19:55.170
timing is of the essence so what we have

0:19:50.280,0:19:57.110
here is a example of what a threat

0:19:55.170,0:19:58.760
continuum is

0:19:57.110,0:20:02.240
so the first level is the most basic

0:19:58.760,0:20:05.090
officer presence police officer shows up

0:20:02.240,0:20:08.299
no forces needed this is considered the

0:20:05.090,0:20:09.860
best way to resolve a situation the mere

0:20:08.299,0:20:12.020
presence of a law enforcement officer

0:20:09.860,0:20:14.660
works to deter crime and defuse a

0:20:12.020,0:20:17.320
situation officer’s attitudes are

0:20:14.660,0:20:20.140
professional and non-threatening

0:20:17.320,0:20:22.100
hopefully this is the majority of the

0:20:20.140,0:20:23.450
interactions that you have with the

0:20:22.100,0:20:27.049
police when they’re called out for

0:20:23.450,0:20:30.140
something but like you said even this

0:20:27.049,0:20:34.190
can be an aggravating element to a

0:20:30.140,0:20:36.620
situation so the next level they have is

0:20:34.190,0:20:39.549
what they call verbalization where force

0:20:36.620,0:20:42.110
physical force is not required

0:20:39.549,0:20:44.540
officers issue calm non-threatening

0:20:42.110,0:20:48.110
commands let me see your identification

0:20:44.540,0:20:50.210
and registration officers may increase

0:20:48.110,0:20:52.970
their volume shorten their commands in

0:20:50.210,0:20:54.620
an attempt to gain compliance short

0:20:52.970,0:20:56.840
commands might include stop don’t move

0:20:54.620,0:20:58.940
now let me ask you have you ever been

0:20:56.840,0:21:01.490
pulled over by police no no yeah I mean

0:20:58.940,0:21:03.200
I’ve been in situations where I’ve dealt

0:21:01.490,0:21:05.330
with police like I’ve been like arexx I

0:21:03.200,0:21:07.730
was the one driving I was a passenger I

0:21:05.330,0:21:09.650
was pulled over I wasn’t gonna put over

0:21:07.730,0:21:11.660
again I was a passenger so I didn’t have

0:21:09.650,0:21:14.419
to talk to the police the driver did so

0:21:11.660,0:21:16.429
I’ve never really had any words I did

0:21:14.419,0:21:18.140
something that the police need to talk

0:21:16.429,0:21:20.330
to me I’ve always been a passenger or

0:21:18.140,0:21:22.250
someone on the sidelines right now I’ll

0:21:20.330,0:21:26.620
say I’ve been pulled over a couple of

0:21:22.250,0:21:30.309
times by police once you were actually

0:21:26.620,0:21:33.879
in the car and you were actually the

0:21:30.309,0:21:36.700
reason I’m getting pulled over we had

0:21:33.879,0:21:41.399
gone out somewhere you being your mom

0:21:36.700,0:21:44.169
and and the car we were in broke down so

0:21:41.399,0:21:46.240
we had to use a pickup truck to get home

0:21:44.169,0:21:49.389
we had you in a car seat that’s how

0:21:46.240,0:21:52.749
young you were at the time and in order

0:21:49.389,0:21:56.110
to put you in a car seat in a 3 person

0:21:52.749,0:21:57.159
seat in a pickup truck your mom had to

0:21:56.110,0:21:59.980
sit in the middle where there was no

0:21:57.159,0:22:02.169
seat belt hmm so we got pulled over by

0:21:59.980,0:22:04.929
police and the police wanted to know why

0:22:02.169,0:22:06.369
one of the passengers was in the middle

0:22:04.929,0:22:07.539
because he couldn’t see the car seat

0:22:06.369,0:22:10.450
they wanted to know why someone was in

0:22:07.539,0:22:12.249
the middle and not in a seatbelt and

0:22:10.450,0:22:15.549
this was kind of a learning experience

0:22:12.249,0:22:17.860
for me because you know I pulled over

0:22:15.549,0:22:19.929
you know pulled out the registration all

0:22:17.860,0:22:21.909
that stuff cop asked for it

0:22:19.929,0:22:24.009
asked me to get out of the truck and

0:22:21.909,0:22:27.730
walked me around the back of the truck

0:22:24.009,0:22:29.289
so I was out of traffic danger and you

0:22:27.730,0:22:31.240
know he’s looking at my documentation

0:22:29.289,0:22:33.039
and just casually I put my hands in my

0:22:31.240,0:22:34.779
pocket not thinking anything of it and

0:22:33.039,0:22:36.720
he immediately triggers on there’s like

0:22:34.779,0:22:42.429
I don’t put your hands in your pocket

0:22:36.720,0:22:45.369
and I’m like oh sorry but in explaining

0:22:42.429,0:22:46.929
the situation to him he was very

0:22:45.369,0:22:48.970
professional totally understood the

0:22:46.929,0:22:52.379
situation I was cooperative with him the

0:22:48.970,0:22:56.559
entire time and he obviously let us go

0:22:52.379,0:22:57.999
but anytime that people are driving and

0:22:56.559,0:22:59.970
they have a police officer show up

0:22:57.999,0:23:03.759
behind them with flashing their lights

0:22:59.970,0:23:04.539
that’s kind of an anxiety situation

0:23:03.759,0:23:06.879
there what do you think

0:23:04.539,0:23:08.049
yeah I mean I I am I’m still kind of new

0:23:06.879,0:23:10.029
to driving we’ve been driving for like a

0:23:08.049,0:23:11.440
little under a year and one time I was

0:23:10.029,0:23:12.850
coming back from college which is like a

0:23:11.440,0:23:14.799
20 minute drive most of its highway

0:23:12.850,0:23:15.879
driving and I had a cop behind me on the

0:23:14.799,0:23:17.919
highway the whole time and I wasn’t

0:23:15.879,0:23:19.720
doing anything wrong but I was always

0:23:17.919,0:23:21.129
looking behind me looking at the cop

0:23:19.720,0:23:22.570
which you know distract you from driving

0:23:21.129,0:23:24.759
eventually he followed me all the way

0:23:22.570,0:23:26.080
down to there’s a barbecue place nearby

0:23:24.759,0:23:28.330
and he turned off he was just getting

0:23:26.080,0:23:31.179
some food but he followed me for so long

0:23:28.330,0:23:32.529
I was I was it almost made me I felt

0:23:31.179,0:23:34.419
like I was more likely to get into an

0:23:32.529,0:23:35.799
accident or do something wrong because I

0:23:34.419,0:23:37.869
was so nervous how the cop behind me

0:23:35.799,0:23:40.990
yeah and and that sort of speaks to what

0:23:37.869,0:23:43.840
you were saying with just having police

0:23:40.990,0:23:47.619
involved changes the entire dynamic of a

0:23:43.840,0:23:50.549
situation people act differently we had

0:23:47.619,0:23:54.879
the the incident of the woman who was in

0:23:50.549,0:23:57.070
Central Park and he didn’t have her dog

0:23:54.879,0:23:59.259
on a leash and an african-american man

0:23:57.070,0:24:00.940
who was in the park approached her and

0:23:59.259,0:24:03.940
said you need to have your dog on your

0:24:00.940,0:24:05.679
leash well she made a big deal about it

0:24:03.940,0:24:07.230
calling the police saying this man was

0:24:05.679,0:24:12.100
threatening her and everything and

0:24:07.230,0:24:14.619
basically leveraged what she knew was

0:24:12.100,0:24:17.169
her power and little white privileged

0:24:14.619,0:24:18.460
individual that and she knew had a

0:24:17.169,0:24:22.629
police we’re gonna react to it

0:24:18.460,0:24:23.590
so that’s such a bad situation she’s

0:24:22.629,0:24:26.529
lucky she didn’t get that guy killed

0:24:23.590,0:24:29.080
yeah it’s it’s it’s incredible and and

0:24:26.529,0:24:30.610
but the police response was so

0:24:29.080,0:24:31.779
predictable that you knew how to

0:24:30.610,0:24:32.619
manipulate the situation

0:24:31.779,0:24:35.950
yeah and talking about our experiences

0:24:32.619,0:24:37.570
with police again there is the issue of

0:24:35.950,0:24:40.450
race coming up I mean we’re two were two

0:24:37.570,0:24:42.100
white men yeah and I think that I mean

0:24:40.450,0:24:43.480
I’ve heard so many accounts from people

0:24:42.100,0:24:44.860
of color that have been pulled over and

0:24:43.480,0:24:47.139
their situations were entirely different

0:24:44.860,0:24:48.399
absolutely SAR immediately suspicious in

0:24:47.139,0:24:51.070
those situations of people that were

0:24:48.399,0:24:52.990
doing nothing wrong and I think that

0:24:51.070,0:24:54.399
it’s difficult to talk about these

0:24:52.990,0:24:56.799
police issues without the issue of race

0:24:54.399,0:24:57.820
you know you can’t the two are not you

0:24:56.799,0:24:59.859
know they have to be brought together I

0:24:57.820,0:25:02.859
great but and the reason that I

0:24:59.859,0:25:06.310
mentioned my incident was I am a white

0:25:02.859,0:25:08.800
gun right so my experience was

0:25:06.310,0:25:12.010
much better than a minorities experience

0:25:08.800,0:25:13.630
would and I was still terrified at what

0:25:12.010,0:25:15.220
this police officer was going to do

0:25:13.630,0:25:17.830
because he at that point in time he

0:25:15.220,0:25:20.950
wields all the power and that’s

0:25:17.830,0:25:24.040
frightening so moving down the spectrum

0:25:20.950,0:25:27.490
we get to open empty hand control where

0:25:24.040,0:25:29.860
a officer uses bodily forced to gain

0:25:27.490,0:25:32.230
control of a situation the soft

0:25:29.860,0:25:36.070
techniques would be using grabs holds

0:25:32.230,0:25:38.560
and joint locks and you get to the hard

0:25:36.070,0:25:40.360
techniques where you start throwing

0:25:38.560,0:25:42.400
punches and kicks to restrain an

0:25:40.360,0:25:44.860
individual

0:25:42.400,0:25:49.300
so this is where we start getting into

0:25:44.860,0:25:51.880
that potential for for physical harm

0:25:49.300,0:25:55.210
the next step that they have is less

0:25:51.880,0:25:57.730
lethal methods officers will use less

0:25:55.210,0:26:00.640
lethal technologies to gain control of

0:25:57.730,0:26:04.660
the situation using blunt impact using

0:26:00.640,0:26:07.840
batons or projectiles they can resort to

0:26:04.660,0:26:10.450
chemicals using chemical sprays or

0:26:07.840,0:26:12.730
projectiles you know pepper balls that

0:26:10.450,0:26:14.770
they fire at you these things are not

0:26:12.730,0:26:16.960
less lethal I mean they these can kill

0:26:14.770,0:26:18.730
people I mean there have been instances

0:26:16.960,0:26:20.920
I know with the protests going on with

0:26:18.730,0:26:22.690
chemicals the use of teargas and things

0:26:20.920,0:26:24.250
they can affect people especially with

0:26:22.690,0:26:26.740
breathing conditions or in your contacts

0:26:24.250,0:26:28.720
it can permanently blind you and there

0:26:26.740,0:26:30.100
was a woman at one point who I think she

0:26:28.720,0:26:31.480
had asthma and the tear gas got in her

0:26:30.100,0:26:32.590
lungs and she died from it because she

0:26:31.480,0:26:34.990
had a reaction to yes

0:26:32.590,0:26:36.070
and then blunt impact the use of a baton

0:26:34.990,0:26:38.650
I mean that’s pretty self-explanatory

0:26:36.070,0:26:40.180
you could if somebody hits the concrete

0:26:38.650,0:26:42.190
because you knocked them out with a

0:26:40.180,0:26:43.810
baton that’s I mean that might be out of

0:26:42.190,0:26:45.580
your hands and not your intention but

0:26:43.810,0:26:46.990
that could still kill them well and you

0:26:45.580,0:26:48.670
can still kill somebody with a blunt

0:26:46.990,0:26:51.100
impact I hit you on the head with a

0:26:48.670,0:26:53.590
baton I can cause brain damage and kill

0:26:51.100,0:26:55.780
you and the last one the CDs are

0:26:53.590,0:26:57.790
conducted energy devices to immobilize

0:26:55.780,0:27:00.250
target the tasers right this that’s what

0:26:57.790,0:27:02.080
your tasers are those have set people on

0:27:00.250,0:27:03.580
fire in some instances stop people’s

0:27:02.080,0:27:05.500
hearts if they’ve got pacemakers that

0:27:03.580,0:27:07.600
the officer is aware unaware of and look

0:27:05.500,0:27:09.400
I understand that if someone with a

0:27:07.600,0:27:10.780
pacemaker tries to pull a gun on the

0:27:09.400,0:27:13.300
police officer the cops not gonna have

0:27:10.780,0:27:15.310
time to worry about that to tase him but

0:27:13.300,0:27:17.290
it still it’s it’s these methods that

0:27:15.310,0:27:19.060
we’re using that even if we’re trying to

0:27:17.290,0:27:21.340
make them less lethal there is still the

0:27:19.060,0:27:23.080
potential for killing somebody and I

0:27:21.340,0:27:26.640
think the problem we have with these is

0:27:23.080,0:27:29.290
labeling them as less than lethal

0:27:26.640,0:27:31.930
generates this Arif casualness about

0:27:29.290,0:27:33.580
them like oh well if you’re acting up I

0:27:31.930,0:27:34.930
can just tase you right and and that’ll

0:27:33.580,0:27:36.190
sell you’re right down and I don’t have

0:27:34.930,0:27:39.580
to wrestle you to the ground at that

0:27:36.190,0:27:41.700
point in time and you can kill somebody

0:27:39.580,0:27:43.810
with it you know either through

0:27:41.700,0:27:46.600
electrocuting them stopping their heart

0:27:43.810,0:27:48.310
or when they go down and it’s very easy

0:27:46.600,0:27:49.840
for them to hit their head and whatever

0:27:48.310,0:27:51.020
because you’re uncontrolled when you go

0:27:49.840,0:27:53.480
down

0:27:51.020,0:27:55.430
you see these demonstrations of Tasers

0:27:53.480,0:27:56.810
you know with the police academy and

0:27:55.430,0:28:01.340
I’ve been tased in the past and a

0:27:56.810,0:28:03.740
demonstration it’s not pleasant you know

0:28:01.340,0:28:05.780
and it took three people to hold on to

0:28:03.740,0:28:08.390
me and gently put me down on the ground

0:28:05.780,0:28:10.880
can you imagine if someone my size was

0:28:08.390,0:28:13.070
teased without that kind of restraint I

0:28:10.880,0:28:15.350
hit we’d hit the ground hard yeah it’s

0:28:13.070,0:28:17.480
it’s frightening and then obviously the

0:28:15.350,0:28:20.930
last level that we have in a continuum

0:28:17.480,0:28:24.460
is lethal force officers use lethal

0:28:20.930,0:28:28.040
weapons to gain control of a situation

0:28:24.460,0:28:30.710
should only be used if a suspect poses a

0:28:28.040,0:28:34.040
serious threat to the officer or another

0:28:30.710,0:28:36.650
individual officers use deadly weapons

0:28:34.040,0:28:41.120
such as firearms to stop an individual’s

0:28:36.650,0:28:43.940
actions and this is an alternative it

0:28:41.120,0:28:45.740
has to be an alternative because the

0:28:43.940,0:28:47.890
perpetrators there are perpetrators out

0:28:45.740,0:28:50.780
there that will use deadly force

0:28:47.890,0:28:55.550
indiscriminately whether it’s targeted

0:28:50.780,0:28:58.010
at police at citizens or whatnot we had

0:28:55.550,0:29:01.420
an incident I don’t know a year ago two

0:28:58.010,0:29:05.740
years ago here the Deptford mall near us

0:29:01.420,0:29:09.160
where shoplifters were

0:29:05.740,0:29:12.350
identified I guess by the store security

0:29:09.160,0:29:14.530
the police were called and the

0:29:12.350,0:29:17.660
shoplifters got into a waiting car and

0:29:14.530,0:29:20.450
the car gunned it right at a police

0:29:17.660,0:29:22.490
officer in its path and the police

0:29:20.450,0:29:24.919
officer pulled his weapon and fired and

0:29:22.490,0:29:27.290
killed an individual in the car as a

0:29:24.919,0:29:31.850
matter of self-defense as what he

0:29:27.290,0:29:33.980
claimed at the time so a car is a deadly

0:29:31.850,0:29:37.460
weapon and they tried to use it like

0:29:33.980,0:29:42.880
that if if nothing else to intimidate

0:29:37.460,0:29:42.880
the police officer in vacating the way

0:29:42.930,0:29:48.120
should the person have been killed for

0:29:44.940,0:29:50.160
shoplifting that’s a pretty extreme I

0:29:48.120,0:29:51.510
think if they in that instance I know I

0:29:50.160,0:29:55.050
thought I mentioned earlier they used

0:29:51.510,0:29:57.180
the use of the reasoning officers life

0:29:55.050,0:29:58.230
was threatened but it’s an instance they

0:29:57.180,0:30:00.120
might have been if they were driving at

0:29:58.230,0:30:02.480
the police officer that’s true the

0:30:00.120,0:30:05.490
problem that I have in that situation is

0:30:02.480,0:30:08.870
you’re in a crowded plaza there are

0:30:05.490,0:30:11.310
other citizens other pedestrians around

0:30:08.870,0:30:14.160
what’s the guarantee that you’re not

0:30:11.310,0:30:16.560
going to fire your weapon discharge your

0:30:14.160,0:30:20.390
weapon miss the target and then hit an

0:30:16.560,0:30:23.280
innocent civilian for a shoplifter

0:30:20.390,0:30:24.570
that’s where my a lot of my concerns and

0:30:23.280,0:30:25.440
that’s not even mentioning that on the

0:30:24.570,0:30:27.000
way over here I was listening to the

0:30:25.440,0:30:28.260
radio and it was they were talking about

0:30:27.000,0:30:30.300
what we’re talking about now the

0:30:28.260,0:30:33.300
excessive use of police force and in a

0:30:30.300,0:30:35.430
lot of these instances its traffic stops

0:30:33.300,0:30:37.200
and an officer ends up pulling a gun

0:30:35.430,0:30:39.060
because the person is not cooperating

0:30:37.200,0:30:40.290
and yes the person should cooperate but

0:30:39.060,0:30:42.510
that doesn’t give the officer the right

0:30:40.290,0:30:43.410
to pull a gun right judging by what we

0:30:42.510,0:30:44.550
just talked about the always we should

0:30:43.410,0:30:45.960
be playing gum when they feel their

0:30:44.550,0:30:48.120
life’s at risk he’s not because the

0:30:45.960,0:30:51.360
person won’t hand over their ID exactly

0:30:48.120,0:30:53.640
you know use of threats which the

0:30:51.360,0:30:56.430
Supreme Court allows does not

0:30:53.640,0:30:59.310
necessarily mean threatening bodily harm

0:30:56.430,0:31:01.230
with a weapon yeah they played a clip

0:30:59.310,0:31:03.270
over here of a woman that recorded when

0:31:01.230,0:31:05.490
she got pulled over a woman a person of

0:31:03.270,0:31:07.740
color and the police officer straight-up

0:31:05.490,0:31:09.180
told her I’m going to light you up like

0:31:07.740,0:31:11.220
they should not be saying things like

0:31:09.180,0:31:12.900
this and then that woman ended up dying

0:31:11.220,0:31:14.130
not in the traffic stop four days later

0:31:12.900,0:31:15.450
she was found hung in her cell it was

0:31:14.130,0:31:17.400
ruled as a suicide her family didn’t

0:31:15.450,0:31:21.930
believe that but it’s things like this

0:31:17.400,0:31:24.450
where the use of firearms to intimidate

0:31:21.930,0:31:27.090
is is a real problem

0:31:24.450,0:31:28.050
mmm so let’s take a quick break here and

0:31:27.090,0:31:31.110
we’ll come back we’re going to talk

0:31:28.050,0:31:40.800
about what excessive force is and what

0:31:31.110,0:31:43.770
unreasonable force is so excessive force

0:31:40.800,0:31:46.140
refers to situations where government

0:31:43.770,0:31:48.930
officials and and we’re not just talking

0:31:46.140,0:31:51.750
police this this you know applies to

0:31:48.930,0:31:53.670
military personnel as well when

0:31:51.750,0:31:55.980
government officials legally entitled to

0:31:53.670,0:31:59.010
use force exceed the minimum amount

0:31:55.980,0:32:01.410
necessary to defuse an incident or to

0:31:59.010,0:32:02.910
protect themselves and others this can

0:32:01.410,0:32:04.800
come up in different contexts such as

0:32:02.910,0:32:07.170
when handling prisoners or even during

0:32:04.800,0:32:09.290
military operations

0:32:07.170,0:32:12.000
when it involves law enforcement

0:32:09.290,0:32:14.930
especially during an arrest it’s also

0:32:12.000,0:32:18.150
referred to as police brutality the

0:32:14.930,0:32:21.120
constitutional right to be protected

0:32:18.150,0:32:22.130
from excessive force is found in the

0:32:21.120,0:32:24.810
reasonable search-and-seizure

0:32:22.130,0:32:27.240
requirement of the Fourth Amendment and

0:32:24.810,0:32:29.370
the prohibition on cruel and unusual

0:32:27.240,0:32:32.400
punishment is in the 8th amendment so

0:32:29.370,0:32:36.440
we’re talking constitutional rights here

0:32:32.400,0:32:39.480
you know this is this is something that

0:32:36.440,0:32:41.100
should not be left up to an officer on

0:32:39.480,0:32:43.050
the street to determine what your

0:32:41.100,0:32:44.970
constitutional right is at this point in

0:32:43.050,0:32:46.500
time yeah but even even the wording

0:32:44.970,0:32:48.110
there allows for loopholes around a

0:32:46.500,0:32:50.610
reasonable search-and-seizure

0:32:48.110,0:32:52.010
cruel and unusual punishment – like a

0:32:50.610,0:32:54.600
lot of these things can be twisted to

0:32:52.010,0:32:56.730
waive those constitutional rights by an

0:32:54.600,0:32:59.430
officer I feel like and I think that

0:32:56.730,0:33:00.990
that’s where we get into the issues is

0:32:59.430,0:33:02.490
because a lot of these terms even though

0:33:00.990,0:33:07.410
they’re right there in the Constitution

0:33:02.490,0:33:09.720
are purposely able to be manipulated and

0:33:07.410,0:33:11.550
then changed to allow for excessive

0:33:09.720,0:33:14.550
force like this and that’s a perfectly

0:33:11.550,0:33:17.930
valid point and a lot of times if you’re

0:33:14.550,0:33:21.870
going to challenge these field

0:33:17.930,0:33:23.520
interpretations of the Constitution you

0:33:21.870,0:33:26.610
have to do that in a court of law

0:33:23.520,0:33:29.370
before a judge and in order to do that

0:33:26.610,0:33:32.670
you have to survive the encounter and if

0:33:29.370,0:33:35.810
you don’t then it’s really not in your

0:33:32.670,0:33:40.890
favor at that point is it so

0:33:35.810,0:33:44.280
unreasonable force in the Supreme Court

0:33:40.890,0:33:45.960
case of Tennessee versus garner the

0:33:44.280,0:33:48.500
court found that police used excessive

0:33:45.960,0:33:51.690
force by shooting an unarmed

0:33:48.500,0:33:54.200
non-threatening teenager in the head

0:33:51.690,0:33:57.180
while fleeing a house he had burglarized

0:33:54.200,0:34:00.630
at the time the Tennessee law authorized

0:33:57.180,0:34:03.870
the use of quote all the necessary means

0:34:00.630,0:34:08.070
to effect the arrest of fleeing suspects

0:34:03.870,0:34:09.480
regardless of the situation which what

0:34:08.070,0:34:12.510
could possibly go wrong with that

0:34:09.480,0:34:14.100
wording yeah I mean I guess go they knew

0:34:12.510,0:34:15.870
it he had burglarized the house so that

0:34:14.100,0:34:17.790
was their justification they might I

0:34:15.870,0:34:19.290
mean even it says so non-threatening so

0:34:17.790,0:34:19.850
maybe they weren’t aware that he wasn’t

0:34:19.290,0:34:22.130
or

0:34:19.850,0:34:23.180
I don’t know what he’s running away he

0:34:22.130,0:34:23.780
was he threatening while he’s running

0:34:23.180,0:34:25.010
away

0:34:23.780,0:34:26.390
not to mention that they’re not supposed

0:34:25.010,0:34:27.770
to shoot you in the head right there

0:34:26.390,0:34:29.900
aren’t they’re supposed to aim for

0:34:27.770,0:34:31.460
center mass right so the court

0:34:29.900,0:34:33.590
overturned the state law because it

0:34:31.460,0:34:35.240
allow for unreasonable use of force and

0:34:33.590,0:34:37.850
violation of the Fourth Amendment so

0:34:35.240,0:34:39.290
again we have to appeal to the courts it

0:34:37.850,0:34:42.890
doesn’t do anything for the victim in

0:34:39.290,0:34:44.960
this case but hopefully we get some

0:34:42.890,0:34:46.600
reform later on that it solves some of

0:34:44.960,0:34:48.640
these problems

0:34:46.600,0:34:50.880
the court ruled that deadly force can

0:34:48.640,0:34:53.530
only be used during an arrest if

0:34:50.880,0:34:56.320
necessary it’s necessary to prevent the

0:34:53.530,0:34:58.870
escape and the officer has probable

0:34:56.320,0:35:02.110
cause to believe the suspect poses a

0:34:58.870,0:35:05.200
significant threat of death or serious

0:35:02.110,0:35:06.490
injury to the officers or others see

0:35:05.200,0:35:08.770
there’s that there’s that loophole

0:35:06.490,0:35:10.690
wording again you know I feel like again

0:35:08.770,0:35:12.070
the officer it goes to the office the

0:35:10.690,0:35:13.150
officer is the one that has to determine

0:35:12.070,0:35:14.620
it so again we get back to what we

0:35:13.150,0:35:16.810
talked about before making those

0:35:14.620,0:35:18.460
split-second decisions in the field what

0:35:16.810,0:35:20.140
is probable cause in any given situation

0:35:18.460,0:35:22.860
if they’re all different you know yeah

0:35:20.140,0:35:26.050
well and I think in this case here let’s

0:35:22.860,0:35:27.880
go back to that plate that scenario we

0:35:26.050,0:35:31.570
talked about and effort with the

0:35:27.880,0:35:33.670
shoplifter so somebody flooring it in

0:35:31.570,0:35:36.910
the parking lot they’re trying to kill

0:35:33.670,0:35:39.010
an officer let’s say could easily be

0:35:36.910,0:35:41.800
construed as being dangerous to anybody

0:35:39.010,0:35:43.450
else in that plaza as well so there

0:35:41.800,0:35:45.820
probably would be justified based on

0:35:43.450,0:35:48.100
these rules yep here if this kid is

0:35:45.820,0:35:51.040
running away from the police even if he

0:35:48.100,0:35:52.840
had a gun if he’s not firing that gun

0:35:51.040,0:35:55.720
off indiscriminately at other people

0:35:52.840,0:35:57.310
he’s not immediately again a threat and

0:35:55.720,0:36:00.250
then necessary to pay for an escape if

0:35:57.310,0:36:02.530
the kid was on foot I mean the player

0:36:00.250,0:36:06.130
had to be in another way yeah you cannot

0:36:02.530,0:36:07.840
round the radio right so police can

0:36:06.130,0:36:10.450
easily call him back off for situations

0:36:07.840,0:36:12.370
like that so they go on to summarize and

0:36:10.450,0:36:14.920
say excessive force by police brutality

0:36:12.370,0:36:16.330
doesn’t just apply to cases of deadly

0:36:14.920,0:36:18.450
force but can also be found where

0:36:16.330,0:36:20.770
injuries are relatively minor but

0:36:18.450,0:36:25.660
resulted from the unreasonable use of

0:36:20.770,0:36:27.850
force so the the headlines today are

0:36:25.660,0:36:31.030
dealing with unfortunate deaths which

0:36:27.850,0:36:32.770
are obviously a concern but it doesn’t

0:36:31.030,0:36:34.960
you don’t have to die in order to have a

0:36:32.770,0:36:38.350
case against the police for unreasonable

0:36:34.960,0:36:41.140
force they could easily cause long-term

0:36:38.350,0:36:42.190
permanent injury that it’s covered as

0:36:41.140,0:36:44.890
well

0:36:42.190,0:36:46.480
so let’s take a quick break we’ll come

0:36:44.890,0:36:48.640
back we’re gonna talk about some ways

0:36:46.480,0:36:59.260
that you might be able to find some

0:36:48.640,0:37:01.090
protections available so excessive force

0:36:59.260,0:37:03.580
is a constitutional violation that can

0:37:01.090,0:37:06.460
be remedied by filing civil rights

0:37:03.580,0:37:10.960
complaints from monetary or injunctive

0:37:06.460,0:37:13.059
relief under Section 193 of the United

0:37:10.960,0:37:16.659
States Code

0:37:13.059,0:37:18.419
okay so if you survived the encounter

0:37:16.659,0:37:21.159
you can sue

0:37:18.419,0:37:25.269
I’m not sure that that’s something that

0:37:21.159,0:37:26.919
leaves a lot of comfort for the people

0:37:25.269,0:37:28.419
that are victimized by this that’s if

0:37:26.919,0:37:30.009
you can even afford to sue right I mean

0:37:28.419,0:37:32.169
the legal fees are gonna get out of

0:37:30.009,0:37:33.880
control especially when these cops are

0:37:32.169,0:37:35.499
typically backed by unions what you’re

0:37:33.880,0:37:37.269
gonna you know go to bat for them no

0:37:35.499,0:37:39.249
matter what no matter more seeing that a

0:37:37.269,0:37:41.380
lot now with the protest and then

0:37:39.249,0:37:43.390
subsequent officers getting fired or

0:37:41.380,0:37:45.369
what is it paid leave things like that

0:37:43.390,0:37:46.509
police unions are some of the biggest

0:37:45.369,0:37:48.819
obstacles and I know that we have a

0:37:46.509,0:37:50.919
section on that coming up but there’s

0:37:48.819,0:37:53.650
some of the biggest obstacles in any

0:37:50.919,0:37:55.119
kind of actual law you know civil suits

0:37:53.650,0:37:57.729
or civil rights complaints things like

0:37:55.119,0:37:58.869
that absolutely now you can also file a

0:37:57.729,0:38:01.779
complaint with the United States

0:37:58.869,0:38:04.059
Department of Justice who might decide

0:38:01.779,0:38:07.119
to investigate your case although that’s

0:38:04.059,0:38:09.309
optional for them when deciding whether

0:38:07.119,0:38:11.369
a government official such as a police

0:38:09.309,0:38:13.709
officer engaged in excessive force

0:38:11.369,0:38:16.119
courts look at the totality of

0:38:13.709,0:38:20.130
circumstances to determine whether the

0:38:16.119,0:38:22.869
actions are objectively reasonable in

0:38:20.130,0:38:25.390
making this determination judges use the

0:38:22.869,0:38:28.269
perspective of a reasonable officer on

0:38:25.390,0:38:30.189
the scene lacking the benefit of

0:38:28.269,0:38:32.829
hindsight now let’s take that statement

0:38:30.189,0:38:36.489
for a second there what is a reasonable

0:38:32.829,0:38:38.169
officer maybe they had a bad day maybe

0:38:36.489,0:38:39.789
that bad morning that’s the bad cup of

0:38:38.169,0:38:41.769
coffee right that’s the thing you’ve got

0:38:39.789,0:38:44.229
human error written all over this

0:38:41.769,0:38:46.569
because you don’t know what mindset that

0:38:44.229,0:38:50.049
person was in you don’t know if that

0:38:46.569,0:38:53.140
person was an anti-semite in dealing

0:38:50.049,0:38:55.419
with a Jewish suspect or a racist

0:38:53.140,0:38:57.939
dealing with an african-american suspect

0:38:55.419,0:38:59.919
and it completely changes the mindset

0:38:57.939,0:39:01.209
yeah and I kind of think I’m kind of of

0:38:59.919,0:39:04.059
the mind where these things are worded

0:39:01.209,0:39:05.979
intentionally that the officers are

0:39:04.059,0:39:07.749
always portrayed in this positive light

0:39:05.979,0:39:09.309
in these kind of situations even if they

0:39:07.749,0:39:11.799
were the ones that took a life

0:39:09.309,0:39:13.989
unnecessarily they’re the reasonable

0:39:11.799,0:39:15.249
officer there without the benefit of

0:39:13.989,0:39:18.400
hindsight you know things like this I

0:39:15.249,0:39:21.369
this is where the systemic aspect of it

0:39:18.400,0:39:23.079
comes in it is in and again I don’t want

0:39:21.369,0:39:24.859
to turn this into let’s bash them no I

0:39:23.079,0:39:27.529
know because I think

0:39:24.859,0:39:30.130
I think the vast majority of law

0:39:27.529,0:39:32.869
enforcement officers out there are

0:39:30.130,0:39:37.519
genuinely interested in enforcing the

0:39:32.869,0:39:42.009
law and protecting people but there are

0:39:37.519,0:39:45.140
bad cop we know there are bad cops and

0:39:42.009,0:39:47.450
the system itself does a very poor job

0:39:45.140,0:39:49.789
of weeding out these bad cops and and

0:39:47.450,0:39:51.019
the bad cop argument is always because

0:39:49.789,0:39:53.089
that argument would never apply to any

0:39:51.019,0:39:55.640
other profession if a surgeon kills 10

0:39:53.089,0:39:57.079
people they’re not gonna they’ll fly the

0:39:55.640,0:39:59.869
surgeon I’ll practice he’ll lose his

0:39:57.079,0:40:02.660
license if a cop kills someone like

0:39:59.869,0:40:05.029
George Floyd or Brown a tailor whose

0:40:02.660,0:40:06.769
murderers are not murders that’s a

0:40:05.029,0:40:09.230
that’s a different subject but those

0:40:06.769,0:40:10.759
officers are still free to go and and in

0:40:09.230,0:40:14.210
situations like that where people are

0:40:10.759,0:40:17.960
are killed for no reason the bad apples

0:40:14.210,0:40:21.170
are not taking care I agree and and when

0:40:17.960,0:40:23.170
we get to the George Floyd case we’ll

0:40:21.170,0:40:26.329
talk about that in more detail yeah I

0:40:23.170,0:40:29.210
hopefully what we’re seeing today is

0:40:26.329,0:40:31.039
going to change that but yes you’re

0:40:29.210,0:40:33.890
right traditionally that’s been the case

0:40:31.039,0:40:34.999
I do think that also today this what

0:40:33.890,0:40:36.559
we’re living through now is important

0:40:34.999,0:40:38.900
because you have things like social

0:40:36.559,0:40:42.109
media and public outcry that I think is

0:40:38.900,0:40:44.569
making a lot of sweeping change to get

0:40:42.109,0:40:45.950
rid of and tend to help the systemic

0:40:44.569,0:40:47.809
issues that we’re seeing now people are

0:40:45.950,0:40:49.400
calling it out people are saying when

0:40:47.809,0:40:52.009
they see it so it’s less obvious to hide

0:40:49.400,0:40:53.869
we have a lot more tools today to point

0:40:52.009,0:40:58.730
out the end justices that we had 10

0:40:53.869,0:41:01.900
years ago so in in talking about you

0:40:58.730,0:41:04.390
know what remediation you have

0:41:01.900,0:41:05.920
we’re talking about this perspective of

0:41:04.390,0:41:08.950
a reasonable officer so the courts

0:41:05.920,0:41:13.490
analyze factors such as the severity of

0:41:08.950,0:41:16.260
their underlying crime or circumstances

0:41:13.490,0:41:18.270
which you know you look at the Eric

0:41:16.260,0:41:19.860
garner case where he was allegedly

0:41:18.270,0:41:22.500
selling illegal cigarettes it was

0:41:19.860,0:41:25.710
executed for I think we had a breakdown

0:41:22.500,0:41:27.360
in the system there they look at whether

0:41:25.710,0:41:29.850
an immediate threat to safety of an

0:41:27.360,0:41:33.480
officer or others exist perfectly

0:41:29.850,0:41:35.430
reasonable they look at whether the

0:41:33.480,0:41:38.250
individual was actively resisting arrest

0:41:35.430,0:41:40.410
or attempting to flee last time I

0:41:38.250,0:41:43.800
checked resisting arrest was not

0:41:40.410,0:41:46.290
punishable by death so I might have to

0:41:43.800,0:41:47.760
throw that one out too they look at

0:41:46.290,0:41:49.710
whether there were alternatives that

0:41:47.760,0:41:52.080
were available or whether warnings were

0:41:49.710,0:41:53.710
provided that or could have been

0:41:52.080,0:41:55.660
provided

0:41:53.710,0:41:58.839
so and again we’re not talking about

0:41:55.660,0:42:03.460
death in all of these we’re talking

0:41:58.839,0:42:08.140
about excessive force so these these all

0:42:03.460,0:42:10.390
do apply here but again the the goal of

0:42:08.140,0:42:13.210
this is a look at what the endgame is on

0:42:10.390,0:42:15.630
this here and and recently in the news

0:42:13.210,0:42:17.890
the endgame has been executions and

0:42:15.630,0:42:21.400
another argument that’s usually used to

0:42:17.890,0:42:23.200
defend police that use excessive force

0:42:21.400,0:42:24.730
is the weather warnings were provided

0:42:23.200,0:42:25.869
there could have been provided people

0:42:24.730,0:42:27.640
say oh why didn’t why didn’t they just

0:42:25.869,0:42:28.900
comply why didn’t they just stop

0:42:27.640,0:42:30.849
resisting and it’s not always that

0:42:28.900,0:42:32.560
simple especially if they’re seriously

0:42:30.849,0:42:34.210
injured they might have been scared

0:42:32.560,0:42:37.420
scared for their life you know if

0:42:34.210,0:42:39.220
they’re in pain ER I know it’s not as

0:42:37.420,0:42:41.560
simple as oh you just ignored a warning

0:42:39.220,0:42:43.359
you know I think it’s a lot of it’s not

0:42:41.560,0:42:46.109
as black and white as well and the the

0:42:43.359,0:42:49.089
problem that you have is the police are

0:42:46.109,0:42:51.730
propagating this problem themselves with

0:42:49.089,0:42:54.190
all of these incidents if if there’s a

0:42:51.730,0:42:56.800
high percentage chance of an

0:42:54.190,0:42:59.740
african-american getting pulled over by

0:42:56.800,0:43:02.440
police and dying then they’re going to

0:42:59.740,0:43:04.510
avoid being pulled over at all cost

0:43:02.440,0:43:06.160
yep because I don’t care if I have a

0:43:04.510,0:43:06.849
broken taillight you don’t get to kill

0:43:06.160,0:43:11.890
me for it

0:43:06.849,0:43:15.640
so that excessive use of force and it’s

0:43:11.890,0:43:18.220
you know the majority of let’s just say

0:43:15.640,0:43:21.820
traffic stops the majority of traffic

0:43:18.220,0:43:23.050
stops in this country every day go off

0:43:21.820,0:43:26.380
without a hitch there aren’t any

0:43:23.050,0:43:28.540
problems the ones that are the issues

0:43:26.380,0:43:29.830
that we’re talking about are the ones

0:43:28.540,0:43:34.150
that are getting all the social media

0:43:29.830,0:43:35.650
attention they’re the outlying ones but

0:43:34.150,0:43:37.630
these obviously need to be addressed

0:43:35.650,0:43:40.170
because these are the ones that are

0:43:37.630,0:43:42.000
resulting in people dying

0:43:40.170,0:43:43.250
so they don’t want to say that along

0:43:42.000,0:43:45.630
with deferring to law enforcement

0:43:43.250,0:43:49.140
reasonableness standards courts can also

0:43:45.630,0:43:51.630
give officers qualified immunity this

0:43:49.140,0:43:54.990
protects public officials from civil

0:43:51.630,0:43:57.390
liability for violations of Rights so

0:43:54.990,0:44:00.030
long as they were reasonably performing

0:43:57.390,0:44:02.400
their duties and the rights involved

0:44:00.030,0:44:04.049
were not clearly established um this is

0:44:02.400,0:44:06.270
where I have a problem it’s a diplomatic

0:44:04.049,0:44:10.319
immunity it is and at what point in time

0:44:06.270,0:44:12.030
and and what Court in this country has

0:44:10.319,0:44:15.480
the right to deny someone their civil

0:44:12.030,0:44:17.849
liberty rights you don’t even the

0:44:15.480,0:44:20.190
Supreme Court cannot die you your rights

0:44:17.849,0:44:24.480
under the Constitution so this whole

0:44:20.190,0:44:26.880
idea of qualified immunity I think is a

0:44:24.480,0:44:29.010
bad precedent that we have floating over

0:44:26.880,0:44:32.609
us and it starts to blur the line

0:44:29.010,0:44:34.740
between like protectors and and guards

0:44:32.609,0:44:36.059
almost you know where it like where

0:44:34.740,0:44:38.069
their job is no longer to protect

0:44:36.059,0:44:39.809
because they can get away with whatever

0:44:38.069,0:44:41.760
they want that’s exactly it if you

0:44:39.809,0:44:43.530
remove the consequences of someone’s

0:44:41.760,0:44:45.480
actions they’re not gonna have any

0:44:43.530,0:44:47.430
restraint whatsoever on those actions it

0:44:45.480,0:44:48.720
reminds me of and Watchmen on HBO is a

0:44:47.430,0:44:50.490
great show that deals with a lot of this

0:44:48.720,0:44:51.540
but there’s a quote from the original

0:44:50.490,0:44:55.559
book where it says who watches the

0:44:51.540,0:44:57.299
Watchmen who watches who who oversees

0:44:55.559,0:44:59.940
you know these these type of officials

0:44:57.299,0:45:02.390
right so they go on to kind of elaborate

0:44:59.940,0:45:05.579
and say in excessive force cases

0:45:02.390,0:45:07.770
qualified immunity can protect police

0:45:05.579,0:45:10.740
officers and harder to evaluate

0:45:07.770,0:45:12.839
situations where there’s a hazy border

0:45:10.740,0:45:15.690
between excessive and acceptable force

0:45:12.839,0:45:17.520
takes that’s exactly what you don’t want

0:45:15.690,0:45:20.490
you don’t want to protect in there

0:45:17.520,0:45:22.470
because you want them to understand the

0:45:20.490,0:45:25.319
decisions that I’m about to make and

0:45:22.470,0:45:28.619
pulling this trigger is going to have

0:45:25.319,0:45:30.990
consequences and if there’s no

0:45:28.619,0:45:33.630
consequences associated with it they’re

0:45:30.990,0:45:36.030
gonna feel far more at ease ful to pull

0:45:33.630,0:45:38.910
that trigger and it it makes excessive

0:45:36.030,0:45:40.049
force a more likely option exactly we

0:45:38.910,0:45:42.000
talked about before because that there

0:45:40.049,0:45:44.400
isn’t consequences and if there’s a hazy

0:45:42.000,0:45:45.180
border between excessive and acceptable

0:45:44.400,0:45:46.859
then what’s the difference

0:45:45.180,0:45:48.960
right excessive becomes the new

0:45:46.859,0:45:51.720
acceptable what the courts need to do is

0:45:48.960,0:45:52.950
remove that haziness you know you need

0:45:51.720,0:45:53.970
to make sure that your people are

0:45:52.950,0:45:55.380
trained makes

0:45:53.970,0:45:57.780
sure that the situations are well

0:45:55.380,0:45:59.490
understood make sure that the reason

0:45:57.780,0:46:02.160
that this guy’s pulling his gun on a

0:45:59.490,0:46:03.990
suspect is because he needs to yeah

0:46:02.160,0:46:05.280
which comes with holding people

0:46:03.990,0:46:06.570
accountable officers accountable which

0:46:05.280,0:46:10.230
is not what’s happening

0:46:06.570,0:46:13.680
absolutely so they say the benefit of

0:46:10.230,0:46:15.810
this immunity officers would need to

0:46:13.680,0:46:18.270
show that a reasonable person in their

0:46:15.810,0:46:21.900
position wouldn’t have known that their

0:46:18.270,0:46:24.599
actions violated clearly established law

0:46:21.900,0:46:27.960
and I think that’s probably the wrong

0:46:24.599,0:46:31.590
well you need to have that that that

0:46:27.960,0:46:33.510
measure but you also need to prove that

0:46:31.590,0:46:37.140
you were in a reasonable state of mind

0:46:33.510,0:46:39.540
at that time too if I look back at a

0:46:37.140,0:46:41.520
situation like for instance I’m gonna

0:46:39.540,0:46:42.960
I’m gonna we’re almost there but I’m

0:46:41.520,0:46:48.450
gonna jump ahead real quick

0:46:42.960,0:46:52.020

  • George Floyd okay so George Floyd was

0:46:48.450,0:46:54.240
ultimately executed allegedly because it

0:46:52.020,0:46:57.930
hasn’t been proven in court yet by

0:46:54.240,0:47:01.290
officer Derek shavon now if we look at

0:46:57.930,0:47:04.560
Derek shavon prior to this incident he

0:47:01.290,0:47:07.670
had 18 complaints on his official record

0:47:04.560,0:47:11.130
two of which ended in discipline

0:47:07.670,0:47:13.080
including letters of reprimand he’d been

0:47:11.130,0:47:15.030
involved in three police shootings one

0:47:13.080,0:47:17.850
of which was fatal

0:47:15.030,0:47:21.170
and he had had a reputation at a club

0:47:17.850,0:47:25.400
that he was a bodyguard a bouncer at of

0:47:21.170,0:47:28.770
using excessive force on minority crowns

0:47:25.400,0:47:30.240
how are you going to explain to me when

0:47:28.770,0:47:32.100
you’re dealing with the man who by the

0:47:30.240,0:47:34.410
way George fluid worked at the same club

0:47:32.100,0:47:37.080
as a bouncer – how are you going to

0:47:34.410,0:47:38.940
explain to me that you’re handling this

0:47:37.080,0:47:40.350
individual with a record like that and

0:47:38.940,0:47:42.390
that you’re in a reasonable state of

0:47:40.350,0:47:44.820
mind you’re not not to mention that even

0:47:42.390,0:47:47.460
when he won medals for tending people as

0:47:44.820,0:47:49.380
well I mean sure it was for a suspect

0:47:47.460,0:47:50.580
that pointed a shotgun at him a domestic

0:47:49.380,0:47:51.660
violence incident where he broke down

0:47:50.580,0:47:54.090
the door and shot at someone who works

0:47:51.660,0:47:56.490
for a pistol in those things it’s yeah

0:47:54.090,0:47:58.860
he was probably at risk but he still

0:47:56.490,0:48:01.050
killed people and got rewarded for it

0:47:58.860,0:48:03.150
which in his own mind would be Jung’s

0:48:01.050,0:48:04.950
that mentality yeah yeah so all right

0:48:03.150,0:48:08.490
let’s step back a second I wanted to

0:48:04.950,0:48:10.380
talk about some examples of unjustified

0:48:08.490,0:48:12.720
deadly force and the first one I think

0:48:10.380,0:48:15.690
that that really kicked off the

0:48:12.720,0:48:20.700
awareness campaign in recent memory was

0:48:15.690,0:48:23.700
Eric garner 17th of July 2014 so he was

0:48:20.700,0:48:26.420
allegedly selling illegal cigarettes on

0:48:23.700,0:48:28.920
the streets of New York on Staten Island

0:48:26.420,0:48:31.290
he wasn’t threatening anyone or being

0:48:28.920,0:48:33.660
violent towards the officers the

0:48:31.290,0:48:36.300
officers attempted to make a arrest and

0:48:33.660,0:48:37.890
wrestled garner to the ground and then

0:48:36.300,0:48:40.680
put him in a TRO called which even at

0:48:37.890,0:48:44.370
that time was an illegal hold for police

0:48:40.680,0:48:46.740
but they still employed it Gardner

0:48:44.370,0:48:49.590
repeatedly said he can’t breathe and

0:48:46.740,0:48:51.540
this is where a lot of our black lives

0:48:49.590,0:48:54.390
movement a black lives matter movement

0:48:51.540,0:48:57.849
comes from here

0:48:54.390,0:49:02.109
and that’s why black lives matter

0:48:57.849,0:49:04.240
focuses on the the choking of him at

0:49:02.109,0:49:06.250
this point in time so the officers

0:49:04.240,0:49:08.050
continued to press his head into the

0:49:06.250,0:49:10.960
ground and kept him in a chokehold he

0:49:08.050,0:49:13.720
suffered neck injuries and died because

0:49:10.960,0:49:16.000
of these compressions the case was

0:49:13.720,0:49:19.060
considered to show police officers using

0:49:16.000,0:49:21.910
illegal maneuvers and excessive force

0:49:19.060,0:49:25.270
however neither of the officers of an

0:49:21.910,0:49:27.880
involved were charged with a crime the

0:49:25.270,0:49:29.650
officer who put Garner and chokehold was

0:49:27.880,0:49:31.750
stripped of his badge and his gun and

0:49:29.650,0:49:34.450
the supervisor was charged with failure

0:49:31.750,0:49:37.240
to supervise and stripped of her badge

0:49:34.450,0:49:39.130
and gun so you can kill someone

0:49:37.240,0:49:42.099
you just got to give up your badge and

0:49:39.130,0:49:43.359
gun and I think that that that’s where a

0:49:42.099,0:49:45.430
lot of the issues come in it they

0:49:43.359,0:49:47.619
murdered him you know that’s that’s if

0:49:45.430,0:49:49.630
it wasn’t a cop it was anybody else they

0:49:47.619,0:49:50.650
would be going to jail like and I don’t

0:49:49.630,0:49:53.109
think they’d be able to get out of it

0:49:50.650,0:49:54.250
and I think I could be wrong but there

0:49:53.109,0:49:56.380
is footage of this right there is

0:49:54.250,0:49:58.480
absolutely yeah and it’s it’s tough to

0:49:56.380,0:50:02.290
watch but I do think it is necessary to

0:49:58.480,0:50:03.460
watch because you can see you can read

0:50:02.290,0:50:05.619
about this in the paper you can read

0:50:03.460,0:50:09.730
about you know the excessive force but

0:50:05.619,0:50:10.450
when you see someone die from this it it

0:50:09.730,0:50:12.190
gives you an entirely different

0:50:10.450,0:50:15.849
perspective because it makes it real and

0:50:12.190,0:50:17.770
you see the almost the casualness of it

0:50:15.849,0:50:19.690
and how it’s just they’re just holding

0:50:17.770,0:50:21.910
him yeah and then he’s just gone you

0:50:19.690,0:50:24.369
know and I think it’s it’s important

0:50:21.910,0:50:26.790
that people see that well and and there

0:50:24.369,0:50:29.740
was an explosion of similar yep

0:50:26.790,0:50:32.440
incidents like this afterwards where a

0:50:29.740,0:50:35.190
chokehold you know be king somehow a

0:50:32.440,0:50:37.660
popular form of restraint

0:50:35.190,0:50:39.130
so let’s you know we’re gonna take a big

0:50:37.660,0:50:42.520
leap here we’re gonna jump forward to

0:50:39.130,0:50:44.260
George Floyd which kind of spurred all

0:50:42.520,0:50:47.770
of this so I want to make sure we give

0:50:44.260,0:50:52.390
him proper time now George Floyd was a

0:50:47.770,0:50:55.150
46 year old he was killed by as we said

0:50:52.390,0:50:55.890
officer derrick Chavan in minneapolis

0:50:55.150,0:50:58.300
minnesota

0:50:55.890,0:51:02.530
now George Floyd himself was not an

0:50:58.300,0:51:04.540
angel and and I make no attempt to paint

0:51:02.530,0:51:10.680
him as one

0:51:04.540,0:51:13.060
he had been charged with I think eight

0:51:10.680,0:51:17.619
he wouldn’t charge eight times for

0:51:13.060,0:51:23.530
violent offenses between 97 and 2005 so

0:51:17.619,0:51:26.170
the man had reputation but after his

0:51:23.530,0:51:29.970
last arrest he was trying to turn things

0:51:26.170,0:51:33.579
around he was a hip-hop artist he was

0:51:29.970,0:51:35.500
mentored in his religious community he

0:51:33.579,0:51:38.020
became more involved in resurrection

0:51:35.500,0:51:39.880
Houston at the time which was a

0:51:38.020,0:51:42.190
Christian Church and ministry where he

0:51:39.880,0:51:45.510
mentored young men he helped his mother

0:51:42.190,0:51:48.170
recuperate after she had a stroke

0:51:45.510,0:51:50.790
he delivered meals and assisted others

0:51:48.170,0:51:53.400
other projects with angel by Nature

0:51:50.790,0:51:56.070
Foundation he became involved with a

0:51:53.400,0:51:59.100
ministry that brought men from the Third

0:51:56.070,0:52:02.100
Ward to Minnesota in a church work

0:51:59.100,0:52:04.109
program with drug rehabilitation and he

0:52:02.100,0:52:07.230
had been involved in drugs and so forth

0:52:04.109,0:52:10.050
so he came from a difficult background

0:52:07.230,0:52:13.170
and he was a product of that background

0:52:10.050,0:52:16.470
his his criminal background was was tied

0:52:13.170,0:52:18.270
up largely with that but he had made a

0:52:16.470,0:52:20.920
conscious decision to try to straighten

0:52:18.270,0:52:24.430
things out in his life

0:52:20.920,0:52:27.730
and he winds up dying in the process of

0:52:24.430,0:52:32.770
this entire incident how does that make

0:52:27.730,0:52:35.470
you feel as an individual I mean there’s

0:52:32.770,0:52:37.270
there’s a thing with I see it a lot in

0:52:35.470,0:52:39.520
like right-leaning media where they take

0:52:37.270,0:52:41.650
his record and they use that to justify

0:52:39.520,0:52:42.970
what happened to him and it’s not that

0:52:41.650,0:52:44.710
some people are not blunt like black and

0:52:42.970,0:52:46.240
white like I mentioned earlier they’re

0:52:44.710,0:52:48.480
not it’s not no one’s all good and no

0:52:46.240,0:52:51.690
one’s all bed so what bothers me is when

0:52:48.480,0:52:54.310
his record is brought up as a way to

0:52:51.690,0:52:56.440
almost justify what happened him and

0:52:54.310,0:52:58.120
it’s not nothing should justify what

0:52:56.440,0:53:00.010
happened to him it was horrible again I

0:52:58.120,0:53:01.270
mentioned it with Eric garner but

0:53:00.010,0:53:03.010
there’s footage of what happened to

0:53:01.270,0:53:04.420
George Floyd and everybody should go and

0:53:03.010,0:53:05.980
watch it because it’s something that

0:53:04.420,0:53:08.740
people need to see it’s horrible and

0:53:05.980,0:53:10.240
it’s slow and you don’t realize how long

0:53:08.740,0:53:12.010
eight minutes is until you’re watching

0:53:10.240,0:53:14.830
this man die in front of you know and

0:53:12.010,0:53:18.130
his record doesn’t obviously it’s

0:53:14.830,0:53:20.350
important because it was he did things

0:53:18.130,0:53:22.240
that were bad in his past but he was

0:53:20.350,0:53:23.920
trying to turn things around and I he

0:53:22.240,0:53:25.630
the initial thing happened because he

0:53:23.920,0:53:27.070
was using a fake bill right or a figure

0:53:25.630,0:53:29.200
at a counter for 20 that he was

0:53:27.070,0:53:30.910
portraying yeah so doesn’t mean he

0:53:29.200,0:53:34.270
should be killed you know and it’s just

0:53:30.910,0:53:36.220
it’s we’ve seen so many between 2014

0:53:34.270,0:53:38.350
with Eric garner and before up to George

0:53:36.220,0:53:40.960
Floyd so many of these cases where these

0:53:38.350,0:53:42.880
men are just killed and nothing happens

0:53:40.960,0:53:45.820
but George Floyd proved to be different

0:53:42.880,0:53:47.830
well and and you’re right and I mention

0:53:45.820,0:53:49.690
his record here just so people

0:53:47.830,0:53:52.870
understand what his background is now I

0:53:49.690,0:53:56.140
understand none of the eight previous

0:53:52.870,0:53:58.530
offenses he had had a death penalty

0:53:56.140,0:54:01.560
associated with him

0:53:58.530,0:54:05.050
what he was involved with when he was

0:54:01.560,0:54:07.540
cost it by police did not carry a death

0:54:05.050,0:54:11.080
penalty yet he’s dead

0:54:07.540,0:54:14.070
at the hands of the police and that

0:54:11.080,0:54:16.540
really is what the problem is you had

0:54:14.070,0:54:19.660
four police officers on the scene at the

0:54:16.540,0:54:22.390
time three of them holding him down one

0:54:19.660,0:54:24.430
of them keeping the pedestrians back not

0:54:22.390,0:54:27.040
one of them rendered assistance when he

0:54:24.430,0:54:28.150
stopped breathing when he was told I

0:54:27.040,0:54:30.640
can’t breathe

0:54:28.150,0:54:34.680
Chavan told him stop talking that takes

0:54:30.640,0:54:38.350
a lot of breath no one checked the pulse

0:54:34.680,0:54:41.230
he was still being knelt on when the

0:54:38.350,0:54:41.910
emergency services arrived to attend to

0:54:41.230,0:54:44.710
him

0:54:41.910,0:54:46.240
that’s a problem yeah and even if even

0:54:44.710,0:54:47.980
if you make the officer can make the

0:54:46.240,0:54:50.410
justification you know I was just

0:54:47.980,0:54:51.970
holding him down the he said he couldn’t

0:54:50.410,0:54:53.740
breathe and you continued to do it and

0:54:51.970,0:54:56.050
he was handcuffed already he was already

0:54:53.740,0:54:58.060
restrained what was he going to do there

0:54:56.050,0:55:00.450
was no need obviously there was no need

0:54:58.060,0:55:02.320
for any of them and it’s good that

0:55:00.450,0:55:04.000
obviously it’s not good that he’s dead

0:55:02.320,0:55:06.130
but it’s good that everybody saw what

0:55:04.000,0:55:09.850
happened and that it sparked something

0:55:06.130,0:55:14.320
in a lot of people yeah absolutely so a

0:55:09.850,0:55:17.860
month later we have Rashard Brooks 12th

0:55:14.320,0:55:20.820
June 2020 a 27 year old african-american

0:55:17.860,0:55:25.600
was shot and killed by Atlanta police a

0:55:20.820,0:55:27.190
police officer Garret Rolf officer Devin

0:55:25.600,0:55:29.950
browsed and responded to a complaint

0:55:27.190,0:55:33.400
that Brooks was asleep in a car blocking

0:55:29.950,0:55:36.070
a restaurant drive-through lane Rauf

0:55:33.400,0:55:38.470
arrived anther brosnan radioed for

0:55:36.070,0:55:41.050
assistance some minutes later after a

0:55:38.470,0:55:43.240
breathalyzer exam indicated that Brooks

0:55:41.050,0:55:46.090
was blood alcohol content was above the

0:55:43.240,0:55:49.200
legal limit for driving Ruffin Brosnan

0:55:46.090,0:55:51.000
began to handcuff Brooks

0:55:49.200,0:55:53.849
Brook scuffled with the officers got

0:55:51.000,0:55:58.049
ahold of Brosnan’s taser punch Ralph and

0:55:53.849,0:56:00.480
ran so and if you watch this video again

0:55:58.049,0:56:04.200
a lot of video you have police body can

0:56:00.480,0:56:06.990
you had pedestrian footage from cameras

0:56:04.200,0:56:09.440
from phones and you had security footage

0:56:06.990,0:56:12.030
from the Wendy’s where this happened

0:56:09.440,0:56:14.119
the incident was fine up until Brook

0:56:12.030,0:56:17.069
Trent

0:56:14.119,0:56:19.829
so with Rolf pursuing him Brooks turned

0:56:17.069,0:56:22.290
to fire the teaser toward Rolf who then

0:56:19.829,0:56:26.400
shot Brooks twice in the back and a

0:56:22.290,0:56:29.369
third shot struck an occupied car Brooks

0:56:26.400,0:56:31.079
died after surgery footage of the

0:56:29.369,0:56:33.390
incident from the officers body cams

0:56:31.079,0:56:35.099
from witnesses phones and from the

0:56:33.390,0:56:38.220
restaurant security cams were widely

0:56:35.099,0:56:41.069
broadcast Rolf was fired Brosnan was

0:56:38.220,0:56:42.690
placed on administrative duty and police

0:56:41.069,0:56:45.180
chief Erika shields resigned the

0:56:42.690,0:56:47.010
following day based on the videos and

0:56:45.180,0:56:49.680
witness reports prosecutors claimed

0:56:47.010,0:56:52.710
prior to a completed investigation by

0:56:49.680,0:56:55.950
the Georgia Bureau of Investigation that

0:56:52.710,0:56:59.520
after Brooks was shot Rove kicked Brooks

0:56:55.950,0:57:01.380
and Brosnan’s stood on his shoulder Rolf

0:56:59.520,0:57:04.440
has been charged with felony murder and

0:57:01.380,0:57:06.180
10 other offences browsed him with

0:57:04.440,0:57:08.999
aggravated assault and two counts of

0:57:06.180,0:57:12.489
violation of oath

0:57:08.999,0:57:16.769
this is a tough one in watching the

0:57:12.489,0:57:20.829
incident here it’s clear that the

0:57:16.769,0:57:23.289
suspect resisted arrest I don’t think

0:57:20.829,0:57:25.660
anyone’s going to dispute that wrestled

0:57:23.289,0:57:30.519
a weapon away from the police and began

0:57:25.660,0:57:33.119
to flee that weapon by the police’s own

0:57:30.519,0:57:36.489
definition was a less than lethal weapon

0:57:33.119,0:57:39.849
he turned and discharged that weapon at

0:57:36.489,0:57:42.119
the police who responded with a lethal

0:57:39.849,0:57:42.119
weapon

0:57:42.950,0:57:47.370
what’s your reaction to that I haven’t I

0:57:45.720,0:57:48.540
haven’t seen the footage of this one so

0:57:47.370,0:57:52.670
I just want to put that out there before

0:57:48.540,0:57:56.640
anything else it is a tough situation

0:57:52.670,0:57:59.010
and it’s it’s difficult because I don’t

0:57:56.640,0:58:01.710
know obviously they should not have shot

0:57:59.010,0:58:03.810
him twice in the back right but the fact

0:58:01.710,0:58:07.680
that he was firing a weapon back at the

0:58:03.810,0:58:09.660
officers makes it really it makes it

0:58:07.680,0:58:12.600
almost easier to spin it where it was

0:58:09.660,0:58:14.130
justified this time you know and I don’t

0:58:12.600,0:58:16.590
know it that that’s a difficult one I

0:58:14.130,0:58:18.630
really I mean it’s charged with felony

0:58:16.590,0:58:20.420
murder that’s more than what I think

0:58:18.630,0:58:24.650
Chavan got what second degree I think

0:58:20.420,0:58:29.100
yeah so it’s interesting that response

0:58:24.650,0:58:31.020
being so swift I guess right where it’s

0:58:29.100,0:58:33.090
on it’s a little bit more murky whereas

0:58:31.020,0:58:35.130
it for opposed to George Floyd where

0:58:33.090,0:58:36.150
that was pretty clear-cut what happened

0:58:35.130,0:58:38.040
there it’s interesting the different

0:58:36.150,0:58:39.540
responses to these two situations well

0:58:38.040,0:58:42.360
and I chalked that difference in

0:58:39.540,0:58:45.210
response up to the fact that this was a

0:58:42.360,0:58:47.210
month after the Drouillard case so it’s

0:58:45.210,0:58:50.770
a different world it was very heightened

0:58:47.210,0:58:54.550
the the concern that I have is

0:58:50.770,0:58:56.470
the situation in which that firearm was

0:58:54.550,0:58:59.920
discharged did not meet the minimum

0:58:56.470,0:59:03.130
criteria that have been required okay

0:58:59.920,0:59:07.270
that the situation was a suspect was

0:59:03.130,0:59:10.540
fleeing did not have a deadly weapon was

0:59:07.270,0:59:12.430
not posing a threat to anyone else even

0:59:10.540,0:59:16.330
though he discharged a less than lethal

0:59:12.430,0:59:18.430
weapon at the police that basic premise

0:59:16.330,0:59:22.630
of he was not a danger to someone else

0:59:18.430,0:59:25.540
was it there so execute him as he ran

0:59:22.630,0:59:26.920
away I think kind of violates what that

0:59:25.540,0:59:29.500
standard is not to mention that the

0:59:26.920,0:59:31.960
police also hit a occupied car and

0:59:29.500,0:59:34.390
there’s my other concern so you’re in a

0:59:31.960,0:59:37.240
busy drive-thru in a in a residential

0:59:34.390,0:59:39.970
area and you’re indiscriminately firing

0:59:37.240,0:59:41.800
your firearm three times hitting the

0:59:39.970,0:59:43.240
suspect twice and what did you need the

0:59:41.800,0:59:46.200
third shot for if you already hit him

0:59:43.240,0:59:49.119
twice yeah that it could have been

0:59:46.200,0:59:51.210
somebody relatively innocent could have

0:59:49.119,0:59:54.040
been killed with no warning really yeah

0:59:51.210,0:59:57.490
we live in a very difficult time right

0:59:54.040,1:00:00.880
now as demonstrated by just these three

0:59:57.490,1:00:05.200
incidents here and and I think the

1:00:00.880,1:00:07.000
future is if nothing else there’s going

1:00:05.200,1:00:08.710
to be change and we’re gonna we’re

1:00:07.000,1:00:10.270
running you know priority two one on

1:00:08.710,1:00:12.310
remarks are a little late here but I

1:00:10.270,1:00:14.140
think the topic is worth spending the

1:00:12.310,1:00:15.369
time one we’re gonna take a quick break

1:00:14.140,1:00:16.930
and we’re to come back and we’re gonna

1:00:15.369,1:00:19.300
talk about where we think the future is

1:00:16.930,1:00:26.470
going to go with this

1:00:19.300,1:00:29.450
[Music]

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husband-and-wife team of pop culture

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fandom we’ll look at the interesting and

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insights into things calm

1:01:23.210,1:01:30.430
[Music]

1:01:27.690,1:01:32.350
so demonstrators have delivered a clear

1:01:30.430,1:01:36.580
message in the days since George Floyd

1:01:32.350,1:01:38.980
was killed about how America’s police

1:01:36.580,1:01:41.380
force has to change in the way they

1:01:38.980,1:01:45.730
treat black people and and that change

1:01:41.380,1:01:48.160
needs to happen now here’s a partial

1:01:45.730,1:01:51.540
list of some of the things that are

1:01:48.160,1:01:53.890
changing right now as a result of these

1:01:51.540,1:01:56.620
so there’s been changes to tactical

1:01:53.890,1:01:59.470
rules Dallas and Minneapolis have

1:01:56.620,1:02:02.500
mandated officers intervene when a

1:01:59.470,1:02:05.230
colleague is using excessive force I’m

1:02:02.500,1:02:07.600
not really sure what that means they

1:02:05.230,1:02:11.380
intervened when Chavan was using

1:02:07.600,1:02:13.030
excessive force on George Floyd of

1:02:11.380,1:02:16.060
course they intervened by restraining

1:02:13.030,1:02:19.090
Floyd even further so I’m curious to see

1:02:16.060,1:02:22.660
what the details of those are Seattle

1:02:19.090,1:02:25.180
banned the covering of badge numbers so

1:02:22.660,1:02:27.400
that you know you could find out who

1:02:25.180,1:02:30.460
these police were they also been

1:02:27.400,1:02:32.650
chokeholds and tear gas minneapolis band

1:02:30.460,1:02:33.730
chokeholds houston band chokehold the

1:02:32.650,1:02:37.330
fact that these weren’t banned before

1:02:33.730,1:02:39.430
this I think it’s kind of disturbing new

1:02:37.330,1:02:41.380
york band chokeholds and repealed a law

1:02:39.430,1:02:43.600
that sealed records of officer

1:02:41.380,1:02:47.050
misconduct from the public not sure why

1:02:43.600,1:02:49.620
that was in place philadelphia bans tear

1:02:47.050,1:02:52.060
gas and other non-lethal methods

1:02:49.620,1:02:54.910
connecticut has banned choke holds and

1:02:52.060,1:02:57.400
prohibited state emergency services from

1:02:54.910,1:03:00.850
buying military-grade equipment from the

1:02:57.400,1:03:02.590
federal government why local police need

1:03:00.850,1:03:04.660
to buy military-grade equipment from the

1:03:02.590,1:03:06.430
federal government that’s beyond me

1:03:04.660,1:03:10.450
that’s that’s we can make it on their

1:03:06.430,1:03:11.800
show about that just that and it’s like

1:03:10.450,1:03:13.090
we talked about excessive force when you

1:03:11.800,1:03:14.980
have access to this kind of equipment

1:03:13.090,1:03:16.660
it’s almost it seems almost inevitable

1:03:14.980,1:03:19.060
right now what and sure if you’re

1:03:16.660,1:03:20.140
policing a high crime area you might

1:03:19.060,1:03:21.390
need better equipment to protect

1:03:20.140,1:03:24.010
yourselves but you don’t need like

1:03:21.390,1:03:25.390
assault rifles and tanks even my town I

1:03:24.010,1:03:26.890
live in a relatively small town they’ve

1:03:25.390,1:03:28.990
bought like an APC like two years ago

1:03:26.890,1:03:30.820
and it’s just ridiculous and people did

1:03:28.990,1:03:32.590
speak out about of them but it’s like

1:03:30.820,1:03:33.730
and when we get into defunding the

1:03:32.590,1:03:35.160
police these are the kind of things we

1:03:33.730,1:03:36.540
talk about you don’t need

1:03:35.160,1:03:39.090
the amount of money that they’re getting

1:03:36.540,1:03:41.550
yeah so they’re also talking about

1:03:39.090,1:03:43.410
budget cuts and defunding the police so

1:03:41.550,1:03:45.320
Los Angeles is considered cutting police

1:03:43.410,1:03:48.300
budget by up to hundred fifty million

1:03:45.320,1:03:50.720
New York City is considered cutting but

1:03:48.300,1:03:54.120
hasn’t disclosed specific numbers

1:03:50.720,1:03:56.790
Minneapolis under defunding Minneapolis

1:03:54.120,1:03:58.830
City Council passed a resolution to

1:03:56.790,1:04:02.520
replace its police department with a

1:03:58.830,1:04:05.720
community centric model now that’s an

1:04:02.520,1:04:09.420
interesting concept in and of itself

1:04:05.720,1:04:11.010
this whole concept before I go on my

1:04:09.420,1:04:12.660
time what are your thoughts on defunding

1:04:11.010,1:04:13.860
the police I mean I think it’s

1:04:12.660,1:04:16.110
definitely something that needs to

1:04:13.860,1:04:17.310
happen and I’m not saying people tend to

1:04:16.110,1:04:20.010
take it and twist it is and we’re gonna

1:04:17.310,1:04:21.180
get rid of all cops and and you know

1:04:20.010,1:04:22.770
you’re gonna call 9-1-1 and no one’s

1:04:21.180,1:04:23.730
gonna pick up all right

1:04:22.770,1:04:25.290
not to mention that’s that’s already

1:04:23.730,1:04:26.850
happens sometimes in some places due to

1:04:25.290,1:04:28.890
you know just how the area spread out

1:04:26.850,1:04:30.630
but I think if if groups like teachers

1:04:28.890,1:04:32.610
and doctors especially we just saw with

1:04:30.630,1:04:34.320
the pandemic don’t have access to the

1:04:32.610,1:04:36.540
resources they need to do their jobs

1:04:34.320,1:04:37.740
effectively which then has ripple

1:04:36.540,1:04:39.120
effects for the rest of a community

1:04:37.740,1:04:41.940
doctors being people getting sick

1:04:39.120,1:04:45.600
teachers being education is you know not

1:04:41.940,1:04:46.800
happening I think that defunding of the

1:04:45.600,1:04:49.170
police would help redistribute that

1:04:46.800,1:04:51.810
money to programs that are better

1:04:49.170,1:04:53.790
impactful and in the long run may reduce

1:04:51.810,1:04:55.560
crime if people are better educated and

1:04:53.790,1:04:57.300
have access to better medical care you

1:04:55.560,1:04:59.310
know and I think you’re right I think

1:04:57.300,1:05:01.860
the important thing here is a concept of

1:04:59.310,1:05:03.810
defunding the police is not disbanding

1:05:01.860,1:05:06.240
the police right the concept of

1:05:03.810,1:05:09.270
defunding the police is a restructuring

1:05:06.240,1:05:10.860
of what that dynamic is right now like

1:05:09.270,1:05:15.900
we mentioned earlier you pick up the

1:05:10.860,1:05:18.120
phone call 9-1-1 you get a trained

1:05:15.900,1:05:20.400
aggressor with a gun showing up at your

1:05:18.120,1:05:23.670
door regardless of what you’re calling

1:05:20.400,1:05:26.160
for and that is not always the best

1:05:23.670,1:05:29.490
thing for situations the idea of having

1:05:26.160,1:05:33.600
a community centric model would have

1:05:29.490,1:05:36.510
perhaps counselors that show up during a

1:05:33.600,1:05:39.210
domestic dispute so instead of having a

1:05:36.510,1:05:40.440
police officer show up trying to resolve

1:05:39.210,1:05:42.570
something that they’re completely

1:05:40.440,1:05:44.640
untrained to do you’ve got people who

1:05:42.570,1:05:47.700
are trained to defuse these situations

1:05:44.640,1:05:48.690
you do not put a police officer in front

1:05:47.700,1:05:51.030
of a hostage

1:05:48.690,1:05:53.369
a hostage taker and expect them to

1:05:51.030,1:05:55.079
resolve the situation you put a hostage

1:05:53.369,1:05:58.250
negotiator in front they’re especially

1:05:55.079,1:06:01.560
trained to deal with these situations so

1:05:58.250,1:06:04.470
defunding the police is about changing

1:06:01.560,1:06:06.510
how we respond it’s about taking assault

1:06:04.470,1:06:08.910
rifles out of the police you know at no

1:06:06.510,1:06:11.760
point in time should police officer be

1:06:08.910,1:06:14.730
walking the streets with assault rifles

1:06:11.760,1:06:18.450
as they’re providing protection to

1:06:14.730,1:06:21.240
protesters so when we say defund the

1:06:18.450,1:06:23.190
police it’s not disbanded yeah and there

1:06:21.240,1:06:25.200
was particularly I don’t know how much

1:06:23.190,1:06:26.910
you watch the cable television but of

1:06:25.200,1:06:28.380
course Trump is taking this defund the

1:06:26.910,1:06:30.450
police and running with it there’s a

1:06:28.380,1:06:31.829
particularly terrible ad where it’s it’s

1:06:30.450,1:06:33.990
someone calling them on one and it goes

1:06:31.829,1:06:35.550
to an automated system dial one for

1:06:33.990,1:06:37.319
murder dial two for a home invasion and

1:06:35.550,1:06:38.339
then it cuts to like a burning City

1:06:37.319,1:06:39.329
Street and it’s like this is what’s

1:06:38.339,1:06:39.780
gonna have it if you’re deep on the

1:06:39.329,1:06:42.450
police

1:06:39.780,1:06:45.810
that’s just blatant misinformation well

1:06:42.450,1:06:48.119
it is and it’s it’s because Donald Trump

1:06:45.810,1:06:50.420
just doesn’t understand and Donald Trump

1:06:48.119,1:06:53.349
is deliberately trying to manipulate

1:06:50.420,1:06:56.049
what is

1:06:53.349,1:06:58.479
a situation that is long and coming and

1:06:56.049,1:07:02.499
long overdue he’s trying to manipulate

1:06:58.479,1:07:03.729
that to ensure his own real action and I

1:07:02.499,1:07:05.319
just I don’t want to fall down a trump

1:07:03.729,1:07:08.019
rabbit hole because it’s so easy to do

1:07:05.319,1:07:09.400
but I just if we’re trying to define

1:07:08.019,1:07:11.920
what’s on the police’s I think there’s

1:07:09.400,1:07:13.180
so much propaganda and misinformation I

1:07:11.920,1:07:16.059
just want to make sure that we

1:07:13.180,1:07:19.479
acknowledge them it is and and there

1:07:16.059,1:07:20.470
have been successes in disbanding police

1:07:19.479,1:07:23.769
okay

1:07:20.470,1:07:26.650
I’ll point to Camden New Jersey where it

1:07:23.769,1:07:29.499
came the New Jersey the corruption was

1:07:26.650,1:07:32.920
so rife in the in the police department

1:07:29.499,1:07:34.420
that for years they tried to get to wean

1:07:32.920,1:07:36.930
it out and they couldn’t so eventually

1:07:34.420,1:07:39.249
the City Council disbanded the police

1:07:36.930,1:07:41.410
they had the state police come in and

1:07:39.249,1:07:43.269
patrol and then they went back and they

1:07:41.410,1:07:45.789
rebuilt the police force and one of the

1:07:43.269,1:07:48.789
things that canden is doing that is

1:07:45.789,1:07:52.589
making it a success is there’s a mandate

1:07:48.789,1:07:55.420
by the chief of police in Camden that

1:07:52.589,1:07:57.579
officers who come in and work in the

1:07:55.420,1:07:59.529
police department have to walk the

1:07:57.579,1:08:01.690
streets they have to knock on doors they

1:07:59.529,1:08:03.430
have to talk to the residents on the

1:08:01.690,1:08:05.499
street they’re building that

1:08:03.430,1:08:07.599
relationship it’s a cooperative

1:08:05.499,1:08:09.729
relationship that people have and it’s

1:08:07.599,1:08:12.069
proving to be very effective in Camden

1:08:09.729,1:08:13.690
at this point in time the blunt

1:08:12.069,1:08:15.219
criticism they have is that a lot of

1:08:13.690,1:08:17.529
these police don’t actually live in

1:08:15.219,1:08:20.440
Camden so but that’s something that can

1:08:17.529,1:08:22.119
be resolved later but moving on to

1:08:20.440,1:08:23.889
things that are changing right now so we

1:08:22.119,1:08:27.099
have school contracts are getting

1:08:23.889,1:08:29.259
cancelled so Minneapolis Denver and

1:08:27.099,1:08:32.799
Portland have moved to end the presence

1:08:29.259,1:08:34.449
of police officers in local schools not

1:08:32.799,1:08:35.710
really sure that’s a good idea given the

1:08:34.449,1:08:39.670
number of school shootings that we’ve

1:08:35.710,1:08:42.460
seen but we’ll say officers have a

1:08:39.670,1:08:45.549
presence in 25 biggest school districts

1:08:42.460,1:08:48.940
nationwide at this point in time so

1:08:45.549,1:08:52.480
we’ll see where that goes there’s been a

1:08:48.940,1:08:55.080
change to no-knock warrants there’s been

1:08:52.480,1:08:58.480
a ban in Louisville Kentucky where

1:08:55.080,1:09:01.270
Brianna Taylor was killed by police

1:08:58.480,1:09:03.010
officers who raided her home with this

1:09:01.270,1:09:04.720
type of warrant

1:09:03.010,1:09:06.190
so that was what you’re talking about

1:09:04.720,1:09:08.530
earlier yeah they were there undercover

1:09:06.190,1:09:10.690
cops too so they it wasn’t even clear

1:09:08.530,1:09:12.340
that they were police so she was killed

1:09:10.690,1:09:14.740
and then when her boyfriend tried to

1:09:12.340,1:09:17.170
intervene because they were not wearing

1:09:14.740,1:09:18.970
uniforms he tried to help and again I

1:09:17.170,1:09:19.840
don’t I we tried I don’t want to bring

1:09:18.970,1:09:21.460
up because I don’t have all the

1:09:19.840,1:09:24.370
information but he was either arrested

1:09:21.460,1:09:27.040
or harmed as well yeah

1:09:24.370,1:09:29.500
so there’s changes for that so there’s

1:09:27.040,1:09:32.230
changes for police transparency we’d

1:09:29.500,1:09:34.680
spoke briefly about New York removing

1:09:32.230,1:09:34.680
the band

1:09:35.509,1:09:40.020
lockdown records on police officers who

1:09:38.549,1:09:42.020
have been investigated for excessive

1:09:40.020,1:09:44.549
force so you can get that information

1:09:42.020,1:09:46.380
the one problem that we do run into is

1:09:44.549,1:09:48.529
disciplinary hurdles and you touched on

1:09:46.380,1:09:51.329
this earlier talking about police unions

1:09:48.529,1:09:53.190
it’s ridiculously hard to fire police

1:09:51.329,1:09:56.280
officers in the u.s. let alone get

1:09:53.190,1:10:00.179
criminal charges to stick chalk that up

1:09:56.280,1:10:03.270
to unions qualified immunity weakness

1:10:00.179,1:10:05.040
from elected officials and it’s a major

1:10:03.270,1:10:06.949
roadblock to change it’s it’s that

1:10:05.040,1:10:09.000
bureaucracy that we’re ingrained in

1:10:06.949,1:10:11.070
Minneapolis Police Department said that

1:10:09.000,1:10:13.889
it is withdrawing from negotiations with

1:10:11.070,1:10:15.300
its police union the real effect of that

1:10:13.889,1:10:18.989
is yet to be determined

1:10:15.300,1:10:21.090
so what we do at the end of the show

1:10:18.989,1:10:25.590
here is we try to look at all the

1:10:21.090,1:10:28.559
factors and and give an educated guess

1:10:25.590,1:10:30.090
wherever you think things are going what

1:10:28.559,1:10:31.530
do you think is going to happen when do

1:10:30.090,1:10:34.500
you think something’s going to happen

1:10:31.530,1:10:38.790
and do you think that this is a lasting

1:10:34.500,1:10:40.820
change or is this something that it’s

1:10:38.790,1:10:42.719
going to fade from the headlines and

1:10:40.820,1:10:45.480
we’re gonna be right back in this

1:10:42.719,1:10:48.420
position in months well I hope that I

1:10:45.480,1:10:51.030
hope that it is it continues and I hope

1:10:48.420,1:10:52.889
that people continue to protest and that

1:10:51.030,1:10:54.960
movements continue to happen I do think

1:10:52.889,1:10:58.920
that there is a pretty clear effort by

1:10:54.960,1:11:00.630
than just general media to suppress the

1:10:58.920,1:11:02.460
coverage of these these protests I mean

1:11:00.630,1:11:03.540
they focus on the looting instead of the

1:11:02.460,1:11:05.099
peaceful protest it actually won’t

1:11:03.540,1:11:08.449
change and I think that is by design and

1:11:05.099,1:11:10.590
I hope that despite this to this

1:11:08.449,1:11:11.670
discouragement excuse me that these

1:11:10.590,1:11:13.800
things continue to happen and people

1:11:11.670,1:11:17.250
fight for change and I do think because

1:11:13.800,1:11:18.900
we’ve seen so many cases of police

1:11:17.250,1:11:20.670
officers using using deadly force

1:11:18.900,1:11:22.710
killing particularly people of color

1:11:20.670,1:11:26.099
that are swept from the headlines

1:11:22.710,1:11:27.929
Trayvon Martin things like that but

1:11:26.099,1:11:29.429
something about George Floyd and what

1:11:27.929,1:11:30.659
happened afterwards feels different

1:11:29.429,1:11:32.670
people feel like they’re talking about

1:11:30.659,1:11:35.250
it more and and with the black lives

1:11:32.670,1:11:37.530
matter movement growing and getting

1:11:35.250,1:11:39.540
backing from all types of people whether

1:11:37.530,1:11:40.800
it be celebrities or companies however

1:11:39.540,1:11:43.530
you want to take that how genuine they

1:11:40.800,1:11:45.989
are I think it is hopefully going to

1:11:43.530,1:11:47.909
effect more change in terms of defunding

1:11:45.989,1:11:49.620
the police in terms of

1:11:47.909,1:11:50.790
being it making it easier to call

1:11:49.620,1:11:52.860
officers out when they use excessive

1:11:50.790,1:11:55.290
force and get them to face consequences

1:11:52.860,1:11:58.290
for it I think you’re absolutely right I

1:11:55.290,1:12:01.909
think I think change has been brewing

1:11:58.290,1:12:06.210
for quite some time now I think the

1:12:01.909,1:12:08.880
environment is more than ready for it I

1:12:06.210,1:12:10.710
think we get I don’t think we can

1:12:08.880,1:12:13.710
survive too many more of these types of

1:12:10.710,1:12:19.139
incidents without it really tearing the

1:12:13.710,1:12:21.480
country apart we as a country have a

1:12:19.139,1:12:23.520
have this stain of how we’ve treated

1:12:21.480,1:12:26.219
African Americans since before this

1:12:23.520,1:12:30.150
country was founded and we can’t erase

1:12:26.219,1:12:32.670
that stain what we can do is we can help

1:12:30.150,1:12:36.330
to prevent it from perpetuating itself

1:12:32.670,1:12:39.840
moving forward what we’re doing today is

1:12:36.330,1:12:44.030
very little different than what you know

1:12:39.840,1:12:47.150
the KKK was doing in the 1800’s lynching

1:12:44.030,1:12:50.310
free black slaves

1:12:47.150,1:12:52.260
we’re better than this as a country we

1:12:50.310,1:12:56.070
need to be better than this as a country

1:12:52.260,1:12:59.489
you know for the sake of of the country

1:12:56.070,1:13:03.030
and the sake of our children we need to

1:12:59.489,1:13:05.760
be better individuals and we as you know

1:13:03.030,1:13:10.320
I can say that from a position of white

1:13:05.760,1:13:13.050
privilege and and you know I an I I am

1:13:10.320,1:13:20.510
white privileged and and that is just by

1:13:13.050,1:13:26.130
society standard but everyone should be

1:13:20.510,1:13:28.699
free from the fear of ridiculous

1:13:26.130,1:13:32.820
repercussions from the police

1:13:28.699,1:13:35.790
I’ve watched a number of podcasts on

1:13:32.820,1:13:39.690
this subject already in news interviews

1:13:35.790,1:13:42.330
and broadcast and the level of anxiety

1:13:39.690,1:13:46.140
that I experienced if I get pulled over

1:13:42.330,1:13:49.110
by police pales in comparison to what an

1:13:46.140,1:13:52.140
African American does and we’re talking

1:13:49.110,1:13:54.469
some very affluent African Americans who

1:13:52.140,1:14:00.340
get pulled over and are treated like

1:13:54.469,1:14:04.730
criminals just by default and that

1:14:00.340,1:14:08.630
premeditated discrimination is what

1:14:04.730,1:14:12.020
leads to these situations and I think

1:14:08.630,1:14:14.360
we’re ready for a change I think before

1:14:12.020,1:14:16.730
we read to that change I think we’ve got

1:14:14.360,1:14:18.620
some work to do our current

1:14:16.730,1:14:21.800
administration is not going to allow the

1:14:18.620,1:14:23.500
changes that need to be happening we

1:14:21.800,1:14:26.120
need to have an administration change

1:14:23.500,1:14:29.960
whether it’s in November or four years

1:14:26.120,1:14:32.270
from November I don’t know but I can

1:14:29.960,1:14:33.640
tell you that under the care

1:14:32.270,1:14:36.110
administration

1:14:33.640,1:14:38.900
we’re not going to be allowed to do the

1:14:36.110,1:14:41.030
things that we need to do to make things

1:14:38.900,1:14:44.150
right or to even start to make things

1:14:41.030,1:14:48.080
right I don’t like I said we can’t erase

1:14:44.150,1:14:50.390
that that stain so we can never make

1:14:48.080,1:14:52.220
things right what we can do is make

1:14:50.390,1:14:57.520
things better we can have a better

1:14:52.220,1:14:57.520
future and sadly with the

1:14:57.540,1:15:03.430
leadership that we have today we’re not

1:15:01.390,1:15:06.850
going to be allowed to do that because

1:15:03.430,1:15:09.760
every effort that we make today is gonna

1:15:06.850,1:15:13.720
find unreasonable resistance from the

1:15:09.760,1:15:16.390
administration so we’re probably months

1:15:13.720,1:15:18.540
away from any real change but I think

1:15:16.390,1:15:24.210
society is going to demand that change

1:15:18.540,1:15:26.950
regardless so that’s my two cents on it

1:15:24.210,1:15:28.660
did you wanna add anything I just like I

1:15:26.950,1:15:30.340
said at the top of the hour um I do

1:15:28.660,1:15:31.810
really think it’s important to donate if

1:15:30.340,1:15:33.880
you can I know it’s it’s tough for the

1:15:31.810,1:15:35.470
pandemic financially for everybody but

1:15:33.880,1:15:38.140
if you can donate to a lot of

1:15:35.470,1:15:39.610
organizations you it’s good sign

1:15:38.140,1:15:41.530
petitions even if you don’t think it

1:15:39.610,1:15:43.840
helps it does because it contributes to

1:15:41.530,1:15:45.280
that social outcry and especially if

1:15:43.840,1:15:46.420
you’re from a position of privilege one

1:15:45.280,1:15:48.190
of the biggest things you can do is have

1:15:46.420,1:15:49.960
difficult conversations people that you

1:15:48.190,1:15:52.450
know I’ve had to do it confront them

1:15:49.960,1:15:53.710
about if they’re casually racists or

1:15:52.450,1:15:55.450
things like that and confront them about

1:15:53.710,1:15:59.320
their stance on police if they if they

1:15:55.450,1:16:02.560
advocate for police excessive force or

1:15:59.320,1:16:05.080
for just racism in certain situations

1:16:02.560,1:16:07.180
you have to be the one to say something

1:16:05.080,1:16:08.740
because people aren’t going to change

1:16:07.180,1:16:10.090
because they see a news story right

1:16:08.740,1:16:12.550
people are gonna change because their

1:16:10.090,1:16:14.380
friends and family say hey this is wrong

1:16:12.550,1:16:16.750
what you’re seeing on TV these people

1:16:14.380,1:16:18.610
being killed is wrong you know and I

1:16:16.750,1:16:20.830
think that that’s one of the ways that

1:16:18.610,1:16:22.270
real change can be brought about very

1:16:20.830,1:16:24.640
well set and any group with you hundred

1:16:22.270,1:16:26.290
percent I think that was all we had

1:16:24.640,1:16:28.630
today we did run a little bit late but I

1:16:26.290,1:16:31.840
definitely think it was a topic that was

1:16:28.630,1:16:35.520
worth covering before we go I do want to

1:16:31.840,1:16:38.860
invite folks to check out our long-form

1:16:35.520,1:16:41.340
articles on medium you can get those at

1:16:38.860,1:16:44.050
medium comm slash insights into things

1:16:41.340,1:16:46.330
we would love to hear feedback from you

1:16:44.050,1:16:48.340
on what we’re talking about what your

1:16:46.330,1:16:52.330
opinions are and what you’d like to hear

1:16:48.340,1:16:54.430
more of us talk more about you can email

1:16:52.330,1:16:57.070
us at comments and insights into things

1:16:54.430,1:16:59.740
dot-com you can get us on twitter at

1:16:57.070,1:17:01.830
insights underscore things all of our

1:16:59.740,1:17:04.260
videos are available on youtube at

1:17:01.830,1:17:07.750
youtube.com slash insights into things

1:17:04.260,1:17:10.550
or you can get all of our content on our

1:17:07.750,1:17:14.840
website at insights into things

1:17:10.550,1:17:17.510
calm and we do stream six days in this

1:17:14.840,1:17:20.980
case seven days this week and on twitch

1:17:17.510,1:17:22.909
at twitch.tv slash insights into things

1:17:20.980,1:17:25.849
anything else you want to say before we

1:17:22.909,1:17:30.010
go all right then I think that’s it

1:17:25.849,1:17:30.010
another one in the books bye

1:17:30.330,1:18:06.870
[Music]

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